Did earliest Christians believe (alleged) crucifixion to be indispensible?

Did earliest Christians believe (alleged) crucifixion to be indispensible?

An account of the earliest biblical Christians who did not believe crucifixion to be imperative!

 

Question Mark

 

Introduction, Background and Premise

 

Paul had made it indispensible for his followers that Jesus’ (peace be upon him) alleged crucifixion is the corner stone of Christianity. According to Paul’s doctrines, without Christ’s (peace be upon him) alleged sacrifice there is nothing else in Christianity:

 

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Co 15:1-4)

And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.(1 Co 15:14)

 

The reason why Paul gave utmost importance to the alleged sacrifice of Jesus (peace be upon him) is because, according to Paul (not all Christians as we would soon observe), Jesus’ (peace be upon him) alleged sacrifice was the only way for the remission of sins:

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Heb 9:22)

Remember that before Paul preached his branded theology, Old Testament Laws had already provided enough doctrines and teachings on remission of sins and salvation; no wonder Paul pre-empted Laws by stating that they are dead:

“But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up as prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed. And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith. Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us.” (Galatians 3: 23-25)

Now, however, we are free from the Law, because we died to that which once held us prisoners. No longer do we serve in the old way of a written law, but in the new way of the Spirit.” (Romans 7:6)

Holy Bible, Good News Edition, Today’s English Version

In fact Paul went as far as to claim that with Laws remission of sins and salvation cannot be achieved:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:16)

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.  (Gal 3:11)

 

Furthermore, Paul even asserted that Christ’s (peace be upon him) alleged sacrifice would be wasted if righteousness/salvation/atonement is achieved by any other means other than alleged cross:

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Gal 2:21)

 

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Gal 5:4)

On the foregoing, Paul claimed that if Christ (peace be upon him) is not allegedly crucified and raised then the sins of believers would remain – it would not be blotted out:

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (1 Co 15:17)

Thus, to sum up, Paul’s theology is:

  • Without alleged sacrifice of Jesus (peace be upon him) Christianity is vain.
  • The only mode of atonement is through the alleged blood of Christ (peace be upon him)
  • OT Laws were allegedly rendered defunct with the arrival of Messiah (peace be upon him)…
  • …it is because if observation of OT Laws provided salvation then Messiah’s (peace be upon him) precious and “perfect” sacrifice is worthless.
  • Thus, conclusively, it is only the perfect (alleged) sacrifice of Jesus (peace be upon him) which brings salvation and remission of sins.

So far so good, however, notice that it is only Paul who is preaching; he was not the only “apostle” preaching about Christianity – there were other stalwarts as well, like James.

 In fact when we read James’ preaching (through his epistles) then he over and over again contravened Paul on key and very basic doctrines of Christianity.

James even contradicted Paul on the indispensability of the alleged crucifixion of Jesus (peace be upon him)! Consider the following passage, for instance:

“Do not deceive yourselves by just listening to his word; instead, put in into practice. Whoever listens to the word but does not put it into practice is like a man who looks in a mirror and sees himself as he is. He takes a good look at himself and then goes away and at once forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks closely into PERFECT LAW THAT SETS PEOPLE FREE, who keeps on paying attention to it, but puts it into practicethat person will be blessed by God in what he does. (James 1: 22-25, Holy Bible, Good News Edition, Today’s English Version)

Now please ponder with neutral mind. If indeed Paul’s assertions would have been universal representation of Christian doctrines, in other words, if Paul’s doctrines would have been the only theology in Christianity, then, James would have echoed with Paul that: emancipation comes ONLY by the alleged “blood of Christ”, man can never be justified with the works of the Laws on the contrary, he would “fall from grace”, Christ’s (peace be upon him) “perfect” sacrifice has obviated the observance of the Laws, on the foregoing, if anyone follows the Laws even after Messiah’s (peace be upon him) alleged crucifixion then the alleged “perfect” sacrifice would be wasted so on and so forth.

 

However, contrary to all of the above, James postulates that Christian believers have to follow the Laws of the Old Testament to “set themselves free”, in other words, to emancipate themselves from their sins! He exhorts his disciples to not merely read the Laws but put them into practice for remission of their sins.

However, the issues are:

(I) Did not James know that Christ’s (peace be upon him) alleged “perfect” sacrifice has been offered which is more than enough, if not the only mode of remission of sins?

(II) Did not James know that with Christ (peace be upon him) the Laws which “sets people free” have come to an end?

(III) More importantly, did not James know that if Laws would “set people free” then Paul’s “lord and savior’s” precious sacrifice would be rendered “vain”? Refer Gal 2:21, 5:4.

It would be disrespectful to the knowledge of “apostle” James that he did not know all of the above. That being the case, the only logical inference to be made is: James either, did not consider Jesus’ (peace be upon him) alleged crucifixion the only way of emancipation or perfect enough to “set people free”! It is because even after Christ’s (peace be upon him) alleged crucifixion, if James who is no less than Paul if not more than him, claims that Christians need to observe Laws which “set people free” – then it means beside Jesus’ (peace be upon him) alleged sacrifice, Laws were also potent enough to emancipate people.

Acknowledging the obvious problems and contradiction with James’ doctrines, Christians Scholars have come out with weird and desperate, if not disrespectful and belittling, commentaries imputing that James did not had apostolic authority and that his preaching were not meant for Christians (!!??).

 

The Epistle of James is not addressed to the assembly, and does not take the ground of apostolic authority over the persons to whom it is sent. It is a practical exhortation which still recognises the twelve tribes and the connection of the christian Jews with them, as John addressed the Gentiles, although the Jewish people had their place before God. Thus the Spirit of God still acknowledges here the relationship with Israel, as in the other case the relationship with Gentiles, and the rights of God which are unchangeable, whatever may be the special privileges granted to the assembly or to Israel respectively. We know that historically the christian Jews remained Jews to the end of the New Testament history, and were even zealous for the law — to us a strange thing, but which God endured for a time.(John Darby’s Synopsis, James 1:1-27)

Observe very assiduously the important last sentence in the commentary. Notice that Darby makes two assertions:

(A)  Earliest Christians remained Jews, in other words, they remained loyal to OT Laws and subsequently doctrines promulgated by James.

(B)   To all those who follow Paul’s preached Christianity, James’ preaching            comes as a “strange thing”.  

Both the above observations have very strong implications:

First observation, namely (A), imply that majority, if not all, earliest Christians (including James and other “apostles”) believed that even after the so called “perfect”, precious, and Law-ending sacrifice (alleged) of Messiah (peace be upon him), Old Testament Laws were viable and potent enough as an alternative mode besides the alleged sacrifice to “set people free”. Thus, majority, if not all, earliest Christians did not believe that Jesus’ (peace be upon him) alleged sacrifice was the only way of emancipation and that without it there could not be any remission of sins.

Secondly, that is observation (B) implies and further corroborates that indeed James’ doctrines were not in line with popular Christian doctrines, if not contradictory to Paul’s doctrines, otherwise it would not have engendered a “strange” reaction in John Darby – a follower of Paul’s doctrines.

Rather than exclaiming on James’ doctrines, Christians need to reconsider each position (that of James and Paul) because who knows James and all of earliest Christians would have had a similar “strange” reaction had they seen Christians of Paul’s thoughts.

More biblical proofs that alleged cross was not indispensible

 

James was not merely preaching but his actions proved that he and the earliest Christians did not believed the alleged sacrifice of Jesus (peace be upon him) to be imperative and the only mode of salvation.

James and his colleagues in the Church of Jerusalem continued to practice Old Testament Laws and rituals including SIN – OFFERING! In fact what is more ironical is that they made Paul the leader of the OT rituals – the very same person who was championing that OT Laws had been rendered dead with Jesus (peace be upon him), Christ’s (peace be upon him) “perfect” sacrifice (alleged) sacrifice has obviated any need of observance of OT Laws, so on and so forth:

“When we arrived in Jerusalem, the believers welcomed us warmly. The next day Paul went with us to see James; and all the church elders were present. Paul greeted them and gave a complete report of everything that God had done among the Gentiles through his work.After hearing him, they all praised God. Then they said, Brother Paul, you can see how many thousands of Jews have become believers, and how devoted they all are to the Law.They have been told that you have been teaching all the Jews who live in Gentile countries to abandon the Law of Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or follow the Jewish customs.They are sure to hear that you have arrived. What should be done, then?This is what we want you to do. There are four men here who have taken a vow. Go along with them and join them in the ceremony of purification and pay their expenses; then they will be able to shave their heads. In this way everyone will know that there is no truth in any of the things that they have been told about you, but that you yourself life in accordance with the Law of Moses.But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent them a letter telling them we decided that they must not eat any food that has been offered to idols, or any blood, or any animal that has been strangled, and that they must keep themselves from sexual immorality. So Paul took the men and the next day performed the ceremony of purification with them. Then he went into the Temple and gave notice of how many days it would be until the end of the period of purification, when a sacrifice would be offered for each one of them. (Acts 21: 17-26. Today’s English Version)

The above ritual is core Old Testament system found in the Book of Numbers which symbolized forgiveness and remission of sins:

“When a Nazirite completes his vow, he shall perform the ritual. He shall go to the entrance of the Tent and present to the LORD three animals without any defects: a one-year-old male lamb for a burnt-offering, a one-year-old ewe lamb for a sin-offering, and a ram for a fellowship-offering.” (Numbers 6: 13-14, Today’s English Version)

Christians Scholars also agree that OT ritual as mentioned in Book of Numbers was used to purify and help remitting sins as they included SIN – OFFERINGS:

“And be at charges with themShare with them the expense of the offerings required when the vow is completed. Those offerings were a ram of a year old for a burnt-offering, a sheep of the same age for sin-offering, a ram for a thank-offering, a basket of unleavened cakes, and a libation of wine.” (Albert Barnes’ Notes on the Bible, Acts 21:24)

Here are multiple problems with the above account of Book of Acts:

(I) If James and his colleagues in the Jerusalem Church indeed believed like Paul that Christ (peace be upon him) has allegedly paid the most precious remission for their sins then why did they offered “sin-offering”?

(II) On the foregoing, if James and others believed that Jesus (peace be upon him) brought the Laws to an end then why did they at all care for the rituals of Book of Numbers – an OT Law.

(III) Why did Paul contradict his own teachings by not merely partaking but leading and even paying for the OT Laws and its rituals

a) Did he forget that his “lord and savior’s” has brought to end what he was executing?

b) Did not he had any scruple that by the  mere “useless” and “outward rule” he would gain nothing but on the contrary, Christ’s (peace be upon him) precious (alleged) sacrifice would be rendered “vain”?

 

c) On what basis did “apostle” Paul partake in the “purification ceremony”? Was not Paul inspired enough to know that sins of believers were purged with the alleged blood of Christ (peace be upon him)?

 

d) In fact by partaking in the ceremony, Paul jeopardized his salvation since he previously claimed (c.f. 1 Co 15:17) that if Christ (peace be upon him) alleged sacrifice did not provide salvation then the faith is in vain and sins remain!

The very reason that James and the majority of earliest Christians still believed in the viability of OT laws and its rituals, especially, when it included SIN – OFFERING in it, sends more than a message that although they might have respected the alleged sacrifice but they did not considered it to be the only mode of salvation or perfect enough!

In fact there are numerous Jamesian verses which lends support to the notion that James and his colleagues did not believed faith in alleged crucifixion complete enough for salvation because James strongly exhorted (to the point of contravening Paul) his followers to complement faith with the works of the Laws (as contrary to Paul’s faith-only doctrine):

“My brother, what good is it for someone to say that he has faith if his actions do not prove it? Can that faith save him? Suppose there are brothers and sisters who need clothes and don’t have enough to eat. What good is there in your saying to them, “God bless you! Keep warm and eat well!” – if you don’t give them the necessities of life? So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead.” (James 2: 14-17)

“But someone will say, “One person has faith, another has actions.” My answer is, “Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions.Do :You believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe – and tremble with fear. You fool! Do you want to be shown that faith without actions is useless?” (James 2: 18-20)

Conclusion

 

On one hand we have Paul and his doctrines which enjoins Christian believers that after Christ (peace be upon him) OT Laws were rendered ineffective and the only mode of remission of sins and salvation is through the alleged cross of Christ (peace be upon him). Nevertheless, this notion was not entirely accepted by the earliest Christians as a whole including contemporary apostles.

Even after Christ’s alleged perfect and precious sacrifice, James emphatically preached that Christians need to observe the OT Laws because it “sets people free” – once again James was preaching this after Jesus’ (peace be upon him) alleged crucifixion.

In fact, James wrote multiple passages just to defend the notion that mere faith in Christ and the alleged cross would not suffice, it has to be complemented with the works of the Laws!

James and earliest Christians, even after the alleged crucifixion of Christ (peace be upon him), not merely observed the first ten moral commandments but even observed the OT rituals punctiliously – the same rituals which Paul imputed to be “useless” and merely “outward rules”. What is even interesting is that, these rituals even included SIN-OFFERING in the form of sacrifice of animals which specifically meant to remit sins!

It does not end here, Paul who was hitherto championing inefficacy of OT Laws and their “uselessness” and plasticity (“outward rules”) was found not merely observing OT rituals but even leading and bearing the expenses of it! Thus, either contradicting himself and his “divinely inspired inspirations” or establishing that Christ’s (peace be upon him) alleged crucifixion is not imperative enough!   

Even after all of James’ otherwise preaching, if more popular Christianity wants to do away with Jamesian epistles then they need to justify why they trump James to Paul. Remember, James was the one who met Jesus (peace be upon him) in person – not Paul. Therefore, if James is not greater than Paul then he is, at least, no less either and in this scenario there need to be strong enough grounds to reject James to Paul.

Related Articles:

End Notes:

  • Emphasize wherever not matching with the original, is ours.
  • Unless otherwise mentioned, all biblical text is taken from King James Version, e-Sword Version.
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Comments

  • Jesus  On March 2, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    good analysis brother looking for more and more like this from you.keep it up

    • qmarkmark  On March 3, 2012 at 9:49 pm

      Salamoalaikum wr wb,

      We have more coming up, inshallah. Keep praying for us, PLEASE.

      Rabbana takabbal minna innaka samiul alim

      sincerely,
      Ibn Salim Khan

  • DAWAH REFUTED  On March 9, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    Here’s my continuation of my rebuttal here; https://donotsaytrinity.wordpress.com/2012/02/26/addendum-to-high-octane-faceoff-in-jerusalem/

    Mr QM question about James 1:22-25

    Do not deceive yourselves by just listening to his word; instead, put in into practice. Whoever listens to the word but does not put it into practice is like a man who looks in a mirror and sees himself as he is. He takes a good look at himself and then goes away and at once forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks closely into PERFECT LAW THAT SETS PEOPLE FREE, who keeps on paying attention to it, but puts it into practice – that person will be blessed by God in what he does. (Holy Bible, Good News Edition, Today’s English Version)
    i)Did not James know that Christ’s (peace be upon him) alleged “perfect” sacrifice has been offered which is more than enough, if not the only mode of remission of sins?
    ii)Did not James know that with Christ (peace be upon him) the Laws which “sets people free” have come to an end?

    iii)More importantly, did not James know that if Laws would “set people free” then Paul’s “lord and savior’s” precious sacrifice would be rendered “vain”? Refer Gal 2:21, 5:4.

    Let me explain what the Perfect Law of Freedom is:
    (Romans 8 : 1-2 )There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus.For the LAW of the Spirit, which brings us life in union with Christ Jesus, has SET ME FREE from the law of sin and death

    It’s basically the Law of abiding in Christ Himself! and NOT OT Law.

    So the answer simply:
    i) Yes, James knew it very well that’s why his instruction tells us to observe the Perfect Law that gives us Liberty which is the Law to abide in Christ

    ii) What James knew was different with your narrow perception concludes, because Law which Set people free has always been In Christ Himself and not in Torah.

    iii) idem with above

    For such a matter Mr QM has again fallen flat in his face, if only he would read carefully and not hastily follows his obsession to deny the truth.

    About James and Paul performing purification, it is not a contradiction actually, I’ve already explained in other article nevertheless I will briefly explain it here:

    As matter of fact the truth is Paul and James are showing us how they have lived according to THE LAW THAT SET THEM FREE. They have implemented their faith freely without tied up to to narrow and rigid dogmatic way that they had able to perform animal sacrifice in contextualizing their Gospel but with different perspective from Jews inwardly. Originally animal sacrifice since OT has been ordained by God to symbolize Christ Redemption yet seemingly in NT the disciples in their FREEDOM used it to symbolize the ALREADY RISEN CHRIST.

    THERE IS NO RESTRICTION ON PERFORMING ANIMAL SACRIFICE RITUAL AS LONG AS IT’S NOT BEING REGARDED AS SOURCE OF BELIEVER’S ATONEMENT.

    I hope after reading this Mr.QM may be free from darkness that prevents him from higher way thinking

    • qmarkmark  On March 18, 2012 at 10:38 pm

      Peace be on him who accepts truth,

      Thanks for your notes “Dawah Refuted”! Your remarks have created some serious problems, please edify us:

      Regarding James’ perfect law of freedom you said the following:

      (Romans 8 : 1-2 )There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus.For the LAW of the Spirit, which brings us life in union with Christ Jesus, has SET ME FREE from the law of sin and death

      It’s basically the Law of abiding in Christ Himself! and NOT OT Law.

      Brother, you are unnecessarily distorting your own scriptures. Read the contextual verses of James 1:22-25, you would learn that James was not talking about any so called Law abiding in Christ (peace be upon him)! On the contrary, James was specific about Law of the Old Testament.

      You also wrote:

      Originally animal sacrifice since OT has been ordained by God to symbolize Christ Redemption yet seemingly in NT the disciples in their FREEDOM used it to symbolize the ALREADY RISEN CHRIST.

      Why is there any need to symbolize such so called “freedom” when allegedly Christ (peace be upon him)

        had brought every Law to an end

      and animal sacrifice is not related to NT but OT!

      You said, “THERE IS NO RESTRICTION ON PERFORMING ANIMAL SACRIFICE RITUAL AS LONG AS IT’S NOT BEING REGARDED AS SOURCE OF BELIEVER’S ATONEMENT.”

      If the animal sacrifice was not meant for atonement then what was it serving? In fact there is restriction, because Paul claims that OT laws had been brought to an end with the alleged death of Christ(pbuh) thus, I dont see any concrete reason why Christian believers should cling to OT “outward” and “useless” rituals.

      I am on the move, but I would try to respond to all your recent comments as time would permit me, Inshallah.

      I wait to learn more from you.

      sincerely,
      Ibn Salim Khan

      • DAWAH REFUTED  On March 19, 2012 at 3:07 pm

        you said
        =======================
        Brother, you are unnecessarily distorting your own scriptures. Read the contextual verses of James 1:22-25, you would learn that James was not talking about any so called Law abiding in Christ (peace be upon him)! On the contrary, James was specific about Law of the Old Testament.
        ==========================
        REPLY : Pardon me for noticing your misguided paradigm, where does it say the perfect law is the Torah instead of Abiding in Christ (Gospel) ? I can safely conclude it as Abiding in Christ by only observing at the SAME LITERAL USAGE of the term “LAW THAT SETS FREE” both in James 1:25 and Romans 8:1-2.

        Digging it more deeper NOTICE in James 2:10 says, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”
        In light of that please explain in what way does OT gives you freedom in not to violate God’s Law when its very precept is VIOLATE ONE MEANS VIOLATING ALL ?

        For us as Christians the term SET US FREE here means our freedom from condemnation and sin because we are NOT UNDER OT which based on “violate one means violating all” and consequently we can’t be measured by that standard especially since our inability to keep EVERY commands in the law is covered by God’s Mercy in Christ, even more our ability to do A command is also solely based on God’s Grace & not of our own strength. In other words the only “LAW” for Christians is Faith in Christ Atoning Work so we may receive Mercy & Grace that FREES us from condemnation & Law violations.

        St.James is not objecting that concept yet in fact gave more stress on it by demanding the genuineness of that faith when he asked for the evidence of faith. Since genuine faith will naturally produce good deeds, anyone who said they’re having faith without any good deeds is just deceiving themselves.

        I’ve explained on why we christians call it The Law that SETS US FREE
        So again I ask would you please logically explain how your own concept of The Law that “SET US FREE” applies ?

        You said
        ============================
        Why is there any need to symbolize such so called “freedom” when allegedly Christ (peace be upon him)
        had brought every Law to an end and animal sacrifice is not related to NT but OT!
        =========================
        REPLY :Our Christmas Tree & candles are also symbolizing Christ though there’s no command nor any need to perform it, it’s just a simple tradition , that’s also how the first Jewish Christian saw the OT rituals. So why are you being so rigid & uptight about it by prohibiting it ?

        Where do you get that funny idea that Animal sacrifices have no relation with NT ? The main theme of NT is Christ, are you saying animal sacrifice does not biblically represent Christ ? if so then it would be better for you to learn basic Christianity 101 brother..

        You said
        =======================
        If the animal sacrifice was not meant for atonement then what was it serving? In fact there is restriction, because Paul claims that OT laws had been brought to an end with the alleged death of Christ(pbuh) thus, I dont see any concrete reason why Christian believers should cling to OT “outward” and “useless” rituals.
        ========================
        REPLY :Please NOTICE the uselessness is ONLY in performing it as the way to redeemed one’s sin, as matter of fact its usefulness is way much more beyond that.
        -It’s useful as a tool of celebrating Chris Dead and Resurrection
        -It’s useful to confirm the Judaic origin of Christ Atonement
        -It’s useful as a tool of spreading the Gospel because it is a live explanation for the compatibility between Christ and the sacrifice.
        -It affirms the Jewishness of the disciples

        Lastly again why are you being so uptight by insisting to prohibit it, bro ? by the way the problem for you is this question, “IS IT WRONG IF JEWISH CHRISTIANS WERE PERFORMING ANIMAL SACRIFICE AS THE WAY TO CELEBRATE DEATH & RESURRECTION OF CHRIST WITHOUT MAKING THOSE RITUAL AS THE SOURCE OF REDEMPTION ?” please answer biblically..

      • qmarkmark  On April 18, 2012 at 7:36 pm

        May Allah (SWT) reward you for your kind inputs.

        As you wrote above that the subject “perfect law” does not mean the OT laws but Gospel and Christ. In connection with this I had already cited in my paper that John Darby a New Testament authority interpreted that the Law here meant the Jewish OT Law. Please read his commentary once again, here I cite it once again:

        James 1:1-27
        The Epistle of James is not addressed to the assembly, and does not take the ground of apostolic authority over the persons to whom it is sent. It is a practical exhortation which still recognises the twelve tribes and the connection of the christian Jews with them, as John addressed the Gentiles, although the Jewish people had their place before God. Thus the Spirit of God still acknowledges here the relationship with Israel, as in the other case the relationship with Gentiles, and the rights of God which are unchangeable, whatever may be the special privileges granted to the assembly or to Israel respectively. We know that historically the christian Jews remained Jews to the end of the New Testament history, and were even zealous for the law — to us a strange thing, but which God endured for a time.

        I doubt whether I completely understood your statement, “Digging it more deeper NOTICE in James 2:10 says, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”
        In light of that please explain in what way does OT gives you freedom in not to violate God’s Law when its very precept is VIOLATE ONE MEANS VIOLATING ALL ?”

        However, I have understood it correctly, then according to the passage you are expected to hold fast and practice all the Laws not do away with them.

        As you wrote that Christians as not under the OT (laws), then why did James exhort his followers to (i) observe the Laws with sets people Free (ii) why did, as per, John Darby (above) earliest and best Christians remained loyal to the OT Laws (iii) why did earliest Christians including Paul offered sin offering sacrifice at Jerusalem even after the alleged sacrifice of Christ (pbuh)??

        I am sorry, but I do not agree with your comment, “even more our ability to do A command is also solely based on God’s Grace & not of our own strength. ” because there are numerous problems with it:

        (i)If OT commands can be discharged by sole grace of God then why did God give such a command in the first place. The truth is, God has given choice to humanity whether he wants to obey the command or reject it.

        (ii) We have seen in the OT, several OT personalities discharging the OT commands, Psalmist being one of them.

        You adviced me to take Christianity 101. I appreciate the advice and will work on it, inshallah 🙂

        By the way you also commented, “REPLY :Our Christmas Tree & candles are also symbolizing Christ though there’s no command nor any need to perform it, it’s just a simple tradition , that’s also how the first Jewish Christian saw the OT rituals. So why are you being so rigid & uptight about it by prohibiting it ?”

        O really! There are numerous denominations which do not have the so called candles or Christmas Tree. Secondly, the Christmas Tree and candles have no scriptural support for them, howver, earliest Christians did not perform animal sacrifice (even after the alleged death of Christ (pbuh)) believing that “it’s just a simple tradition” rather they staunchly observed an OT Law present in the Book of Numbers. They were still following the Law and Tradition of Book of Number even though the Christ (pbuh) had allegedly died! Thus, I am not rigid and uptight rather I want to know why were the first, best and earliest Christian so rigid and uptight about the OT rituals that they did not gave them up even though the perfect sacrific – Christ (pbuh) – was allegedly made!

        Where do you get that funny idea that Animal sacrifices have no relation with NT ? The main theme of NT is Christ, are you saying animal sacrifice does not biblically represent Christ ? if so then it would be better for you to learn basic Christianity 101 brother..”

        “Lastly again why are you being so uptight by insisting to prohibit it, bro ? by the way the problem for you is this question, “IS IT WRONG IF JEWISH CHRISTIANS WERE PERFORMING ANIMAL SACRIFICE AS THE WAY TO CELEBRATE DEATH & RESURRECTION OF CHRIST WITHOUT MAKING THOSE RITUAL AS THE SOURCE OF REDEMPTION ?” please answer biblically..”

        Here is where you totally destroyed the context of the verse, came out with your interpretation just to reconcile the contradition. But any way, let me address your comment. The earliest Christians were not performing the sacrifice as a way to commemorate death and resurrection of Christ. In fact two important things have happened which led to the sacrifice (i)Some Christians have taken a vow and it needed to be discharged. Therefore, Paul was made to lead these Christians to follow the Laws of the OT to discharge their vows which included animal sacrifice meant to discharge the vow and to take sins. (ii) The earliest council of Jerusalem church under James had heard that Paul was preaching to do awway with the OT Laws. Christians in Jerusalem were offended by it because they could not accept to do away with the OT laws so James and other councillors exhorted Paul to lead the OT laws and animal sacrifice in order to prove to the general people that he was NOT to do away with the Laws.

        As you can see that animal sacrifice was not offered as a means of any commemoration of Christ’s (pbuh) alleged death but in accordance with the strict observance of OT Laws.

        sincerely,
        Ibn Salim Khan

  • DAWAH REFUTED  On March 28, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    Asalamulaikum Brother,

    Since you haven’t given any reply yet, I’ll just inform you my newet rebuttal against Shabbir ally hope you will come to my blog and share your thought about it

    Here’s the link http://dawahrefuted.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/white-ally-debate-did-jesus-claim-deity-debunking-shabir-ally/

  • DAWAH REFUTED  On April 3, 2012 at 10:40 am

    Another addendum for Shabbir Ally and James White Debate

    http://dawahrefuted.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/review-on-did-jesus-claim-deity-dr-james-white-vs-shabir-ally-debate/

    • qmarkmark  On April 6, 2012 at 3:22 pm

      peace be on him who accepts truth, Weare currently on the move, however, we do make it a point to read and reply as far as possible to every thing you write. We would try to get back to you – inshallah. sincerely, Ibn Salim Khan

  • DAWAH REFUTED  On April 20, 2012 at 6:47 am

    Thank you for taking time and trying to examine your own mistake brother, but sorry to say I’m afraid after YOUR 1,5 MONTHS RETREAT FROM ANSWERING ME still you haven’t given any worthy argument. And worse you come back and bring some elementary errors that it would be much better if you had kept on retreating until you would able to bring some considerable argument into this particular discussion.

    As you wrote above that the subject “perfect law” does not mean the OT laws but Gospel and Christ. In connection with this I had already cited in my paper that John Darby a New Testament authority interpreted that the Law here meant the Jewish OT Law. Please read his commentary once again,

    No my friend , I urge please read you reference once again THOROUGHLY NOT PARTIALLY, here’s James Darby commentary in the later paragraph

    THE LAW GIVEN ON SINAI was the expression in man, written not on the heart but outside man, of what man’s conduct and heart ought to be according to the will of God. It represses and condemns all the motions of the natural man, and cannot allow him to have a will, for he ought to do the will of God. But he has another will, and therefore THE LAW IS BONDAGE TO HIM, A LAW OF CONDEMNATION AND DEATH I wonder why you miss this sentence which is so verbatim with Romans 8:1-2 that I’ve brought earlier in which it implies Old Testament as the law of condemnation and death and certainly the opposite to the law of liberty. Darby quotation continues

    It is the same with the new man in us (which is Christ as life in us) which is created in us according to God in righteousness and true holiness, produced in us by the word, which is the perfect revelation of God-of the whole divine nature in man; of which Christ, the living Word, the image of the invisible God, is the manifestation and the pattern. The liberty of the new man is liberty to do the will of God, to imitate God in character, as being His dear child according as that character was presented in Christ. The law of liberty is this character, as it is revealed in the word, in which the new nature finds its joy and satisfaction; even as it drew its existence from the word which reveals Him, and from the God who is therein revealed.

    Such is the “law of liberty”-the character of God Himself in us formed by the operation of a nature, begotten through the word which reveals Him, moulding itself upon the word. The law of liberty is practically the principle of Gospel that is Christ through His Spirit that lives in the heart of true christian that enables us to do God’s will step by step.

    So I’ve fixed your elementary error in point(i) that James isn’t contradicting Paul and as a wise teacher of the Jews James teaches this principle of the law of liberty(Gospel) as same as Paul yet through Judaic way of thinking.

    • DAWAH REFUTED  On April 20, 2012 at 6:57 am

      Your error on John Darby is unthinkable because YOU DON’T EVEN HAVE TO THINK and all that you have to do is READ the WHOLE PARAGRAPH of his commentary on James epistle.
      ………………………………………………………………………………….
      I doubt whether I completely understood your statement, “Digging it more deeper NOTICE in James 2:10 says, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”
      In light of that please explain in what way does OT gives you freedom in not to violate God’s Law when its very precept is VIOLATE ONE MEANS VIOLATING ALL ?”

      However, I have understood it correctly, then according to the passage you are expected to hold fast and practice all the Laws not do away with them.

      ……………………………………………………………………

      Because of John Darby’ case I ‘m aware that you need help more than common normal rational people just in understanding for even some easy elementary matters. Let me break it down again for you, here you are being confronted with some “REQUIREMENTS, of course logically in order for you to uphold justice and righteousness you’re obligated in not to violate these ‘REQUIREMENTS’. Apparently for not violating this REQUIREMENTS you must meet ALL that are within with no exception, to miss just one tiny spot will cause your other accomplishments to be nullified. This certainly means rather than making you righteous this REQUIREMENTS in fact has made you as a constant violator of the law

      To give you more illumination I give you example from James Epistle

      Continuing James 2:10, here’s James 4:17; Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

      James 1:27; Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. Do you know there are so many suffering orphans and widows among you, not to mention the beggars in the street, so how can you sleep well at night when you haven’t done your religious obligation in seriously taking care the orphans, widows and poor? Remember Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, SINS

      James 4:11-12, Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? How is your view within your heart upon your ikhwan the Shia, the Ashari, Maturidis or even the Nasqbandi Sufist are they Bidaah or not? because if you say that they are BIDAAH then you are committing sin of being judgmental brother.

      James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!. Are you often being confronted with life reality dissatisfaction and felt being unfairly treated or in larger scope protesting the presumably injustice in Palestine and Afghanistan, even the injustice perpetrates by Iranian Shia against Sunnis ? If you grumbling and protesting impatiently for this reality of life then basically you are sinning ,brother because you’ve break the Lord’s order to be patient!

      James 2:8-9 , If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. Why muslim so hasty to propagate Palestinian cause yet have never being heard significantly for propagating the cause of your own ikhwan the Kurdish muslim

      Imagine just by reading this how many SIN you may have committed ! that’s why for truly meet the requirement of the Law you certainly need grace brother.

      Again here James infuses the necessity of Gospel of Grace as Paul taught yet in other way of expressing it which is by showing the hardness of the law.
      (P.S sorry for my long explanation but these are all for your sake brother, since you’ve shown poor ability to grasp such simple matters)

  • DAWAH REFUTED  On April 20, 2012 at 7:04 am

    ……………………………………….

    As you wrote that Christians as not under the OT (laws), then why did James exhort his followers to (i) observe the Laws with sets people Free

    (ii) why did, as per, John Darby (above) earliest and best Christians remained loyal to the OT Laws (iii) why did earliest Christians including Paul offered sin offering sacrifice at Jerusalem even after the alleged sacrifice of Christ (pbuh)??

    ………………………………….

    These two dilemmas of yours I’m answering them in one compiled answer:

    Romans 14: 5-8; One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

    This shows the “liberty” in serving God , and seemingly the early Christian Jews preferred to serve God by applying their faith in Christ atonement by honoring it in observing the Torah. So again there’s no contradiction even for performing animal sacrifice as long as they performing it based on faith of Christ’ atonement.

    1 Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. This principle deeply rooted in early Jewish Christian, that’s why they performed the torah not only for honoring Christ atonement but also to spread the Gospel of Christ redemption toward Jewish people.

    Your assumption that James or even Paul didn’t believe Christ Atonement as the basis of every religious activity they made such as vow, animal sacrifice etc is hollow in essence, especially in light of Romans 14 and another important fact you might unable to comprehend (considering your poor ability to grasp elementary fact such as in John Darby’ case) you should know , we present christian do believe we also will perform the so called “animal sacrifice” in the millenial kingdom when Jesus will rule as King of the Jews and of the world .

    And frankly this is the important point I want to make since you are so eager about “temple sacrifice” . Will you yourself support any effort to bring this ritual back to Jerusalem which means the rebuilding of The Temple and demolition of Dome of The Rock Mosque since you told me this animal sacrifice is “original” christian’ ritual ?

    For me I surely hope it will be soon to see the rebuilding of Jewish Temple as God had promised it in OT along with the revival in bringing back the “temple ritual” to its rightful place in Jerusalem so christian and jews can worship together. So again I ask you to answer with all honesty, would you support this effort and if you wouldn’t please explain your excuse since you have kept on insisting the animal sacrifice as original christian doctrine ?

    …………………………………………..

    //I am sorry, but I do not agree with your comment, “even more our ability to do A command is also solely based on God’s Grace & not of our own strength. ” because there are numerous problems with it:

    (i)If OT commands can be discharged by sole grace of God then why did God give such a command in the first place. The truth is, God has given choice to humanity whether he wants to obey the command or reject it.

    (ii) We have seen in the OT, several OT personalities discharging the OT commands, Psalmist being one of them. //

    ………………………………………….

    No my friend God HAD to give that command to show the need of grace&mercy , there will be no appreciation toward grace&mercy if man hadn’t been revealed the severity of punishment and the inability to save himself of that punishment . The true statement should be God since beginning has given choice to humanity whether they want to receive or reject His Grace. Prophets and saints in OT are just another example how grace of God enable imperfect man to do what Old Testament requires and how God’ mercy covered them when they failed in relying to God’ grace. All that they had to do was humbling themselves before God and acknowledged how they needed Him desperately.

    Are you sure you will be able to do what God requires without dependency upon His Grace ? Please think my friend…

  • Wharfe Dale  On July 23, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    hey idiot, the torah says that the messiah will make sin offering for his sins

    Ezekiel 45:22(JPT) – And the prince shall make on that day for himself and for all the people of Israel a bull for a sin-offering.

    now if jesus’ deciples were giving temple SACRIFICES different MEANINGS then they were CORRUPTING what the torah was saying and ADDING to it LOL

    if you make sin offering then “sin offering” cannot mean “thanksgiving” or “gratitude” offering or remembering that god became like 4 legged animal and received a drubbing from human hands/ god did ritual to him self ect.

    easy task for pagan “dawah refuted” WHERE in torah is animal meat/blood used to REMEMBER FUTURE ACT ?

  • Wharfe Dale  On July 23, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    just a simple question for a pagan like you, your god in the ot WASTE all animal life and that according to jewish law would be a big sin


    and one of those is that the one offering one for himself needs to have done something that requires it, otherwise not only is he doing the mitzvah in vain, he is actually committing a sin, namely, the killing of an animal for nothing – violating the mitzvah of tza’ar ba’alei chayim.

    before i go on,

    ““IS IT WRONG IF JEWISH CHRISTIANS WERE PERFORMING ANIMAL SACRIFICE AS THE WAY TO CELEBRATE DEATH & RESURRECTION OF CHRIST WITHOUT MAKING THOSE RITUAL AS THE SOURCE OF REDEMPTION ?” ”

    then you would have to find examples where jews gathered together , like in sunday church, and waved thier hands in the air and partied all morning and sang songs over the death of the 4 legged animal who got slaughtered, but people think about it, the christians went on sinning and then CELEBRATED the death of thier god. so if you sinned on monday you celebrate on sunday LOL
    ” i sinned on monday and feel good on sunday coz the monday sin flew back in time on jesus’ puny flesh an blood” LOL LOL

    WHERE is the GUILT ? when guilt will be covered by celebration LOL

    LIKE THE catholics, act all sinful on week days and become god on sundays /celebration day.

    this was not the point of animal sacrifices in the

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