Examining the Engineering behind Jesus’ (p) title as “Lamb of God”

Examining the Engineering behind Jesus’ (p) title as “Lamb of God”

 

Question Mark

Introduction

 

We have been arguing on good grounds that gospels elicit internal evidences – in fact, hard evidences – which alludes that its verses have been penned to meet biased theological agendas; as such on one hand where the gospels compromise with historical facts, on the other hand, it defies the very concepts of divine “inspiration”.

Thus, in this paper we would bring to light another intriguing incident which shows that gospel of John’s portrayal of “doctrine of vicarious atonement” through the alleged death of Jesus (peace be upon him) was the result of that conscious engineering which was meant to bolster one of the fundamental “orthodox” doctrine, albeit, at the cost of conflict with Mark’s gospel!

 

Mark’s “Passover” did pass!

 

Mark narrates that before being trialed by the Sanhedrin and subsequent crucifixion, Jewish Jesus (peace be upon him) ate the famous “Passover” feast with his disciples:

 

“On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the day the lambs for the Passover meal were killed, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and get the Passover meal ready for you?” Then Jesus sent two of them with these instructions: “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house he enters, Teacher says, Where is the room where my disciples and I will eat the Passover meal?’ Then he will show you a large upstairs room, prepared and furnished , where you will get everything ready for us.” The disciples left, went to the city and found everything just as Jesus had told them; and they prepared the Passover meal. When it was evening, Jesus came with the twelve disciples. While they were at the table eating, Jesus said, “I tell you that one of you will betray me – one who is eating with me.” The disciples were upset and began to ask him, one after the other, “Surely you don’t mean me, do you?” Jesus answered, “It will be one of you twelve, one who dips his bread in the dish with me. The Son of Man will die as the Scriptures say he will; but how terrible for that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would have been better for that man if he had never been born!” While they were eating, Jesus took a piece of bread, gave a prayer of thanks, broke it, and gave it to his disciples. “Take it,” he said, “this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks to God, and handed it to them; and they all drank from it. Jesus said, “This is my blood which is poured out for many, my blood which seals God’s covenant.” (Mark 14:12-24)

It is vitally important to observe a few incidents as it turned out in the above passage:

 

Firstly, note the day. It starts with the day before the Passover is to be eaten. In other words, it is the day when the sacrificial animal would be slaughtered for the Passover meal: “the lambs for the Passover meal were killed

Secondly, Jesus (peace be upon him) specifically directed his disciples where they should prepare the Passover meal for him: at the house where the man with the pitcher of water enters.

Thirdly, the disciples prepared the Passover meal for Jesus (peace be upon him) and they ate it.

Fifthly, on the foregoing, Jesus (peace be upon him) symbolized that the food and drink is like his body and blood!

From all of the above, we want to stress that Jesus (peace be upon him) ate the Passover meal with his disciples at his chosen place before any case and conviction by Pontius Pilate. In fact immediately after the meal, Jesus (peace be upon him) goes to the well-known garden of Gethsemane where he is subsequently arrested by Roman authorities with Jewish elders (c.f. Mark 14:27-49). Thereafter he was convicted to be finally, biblically, crucified to death.

This is good enough a narration on the face of it; however, when this is juxtaposed with John’s narration of the same incident it starts to create problems!

 

John’s “Passover” never passed!

 

Quite contrastingly, John claims that Jesus (peace be upon him) was captured, litigated, convicted and crucified before the Passover meal was ever eaten by him:

 

“When Pilate heard these words, he took Jesus outside and sat down on the judge’s seat in the place called “The Stone Pavement” (In Hebrew the name is “Gabbatha.”) It was then almost noon of the day before Passover. Pilate said to the people, “Here is your king!” They shouted back, “Kill him! Kill him! Crucify him!” Pilate asked them, “Do you want me to crucify your king?” The chief priests answered, “The only king we have is the Emperor!” Then Pilate handed Jesus over to them to be crucified. So they took charge of Jesus. He went out, carrying his cross, and came to “The Place of Skull,” as it s called. (In Hebrew it is called “Golgotha.”) There they crucified him; and they also crucified two other men, one on each side, with Jesus between them. (John 19: 13-18)

Notice that Jesus (peace be upon him) is being prosecuted when it was “almost noon of the day before Passover”, in other words, more or less the exact time when the slaughter animal would be made ready for sacrifice and simultaneously preparations for other associated rituals would be made. This in turn implies that John’s Jesus (peace be upon him), unlike Mark’s Jesus (peace be upon him), did not ever had chance to eat the Passover meal.

In fact, John’s narration gets internal support for his timing of Jesus’ (peace be upon him) prosecution; this is so because John alludes that the Jewish elders who conspired against Jesus (peace be upon him) did not enter into Pontius’ hall. They tarried outside while Jesus (peace be upon him) alone was standing in front of the Roman governor:

 

Early in the morning Jesus was taken from Caiaphas’ house  to the governor’s palace The Jewish authorities did not go inside the palace, for they wanted to keep themselves ritually clean, in order to be able to eat the Passover meal. (John 18:28)

Note the reason why the Jewish priests did not enter into Pontius’ hall; so that they might not be defiled for being into the chambers of a pagan gentile – Pontius Pilate. And, they wanted to remain “ritually clean” so that they “be able to eat the Passover meal”! So, Passover feast is yet to materialize and Jesus (peace be upon him) in gospel of John is being prosecuted.

To further bolster John’s position, we can observe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is not portrayed as symbolizing his body and blood to the food and drink of the Passover meal respectively as he did in Mark’s gospel; simply because he was never present in the Passover meal! Probably, by the feast time, he was in his alleged tomb!

 

 

What did author of John achieve?

It is extremely difficult to resolve the conflict between the two so-assumed god breathed “injeels”. However, what exactly were these “orthodox” authors achieving by these well-thought manipulations of data. In fact in the passages to follow we would realize that the author of John did achieve an “orthodox” theological agenda which happens to be the cornerstone of the “orthodox” Christianity which, otherwise, would have been impossible to achieve:

Remember that we were talking about the Passover meal. And in Jewish culture it was marked by slaughter of an animal – a lamb for that reason.

Quite interestingly, John’s gospel happens to be the only gospel which symbolizes Jesus (peace be upon him) as a (sacrificial) animal – a lamb:

 

The next day John saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “There is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

So when author of gospel of John manipulated the timing of Jesus’ (peace be upon him) crucifixion from after Passover meal to before Passover meal when the “lamb” is traditionally “prepared” for slaughter, he was able to draw a strong theological link between the crucifixion of Jesus (peace be upon him) as the “lamb” slaughtered for the traditional Jewish “Passover”!

In other words, when Jews in Jerusalem were slaughtering their “lambs” for Passover meal, Jesus (peace be upon him) – the Lamb of Lambs, so to say – was also slaughtered for the “Passover” of the sins of the world unto himself. Not surprisingly, of this happening just at the exact time when traditional Jewish slaughter takes place, namely, just after noon so that when sunsets, i.e., when the Passover day really sets in, the Passover meal would be ready! Obviously this strong figurative correlation would have been impossible given the way Holy Ghost “inspired” Mark; thus, a manipulation of “God’s word” was inevitable and necessary.

In all of these, do keep in mind that when John’s gospel was being written, Pauline epistles with its outstanding emphasize on the alleged death and resurrection of Jesus (peace be upon him) than his life, was already available for at least half – a – century!

Therefore, if author of John’s gospel was one influenced by Pauline philosophy or used his epistles as source, then it certainly makes sense why Jesus’ (peace be upon him) crucifixion was meticulously shifted before the Passover meal in John’s gospel!

 

Conclusion

 

It is not the blatant contradiction between so called god-breathed “scriptures” which intrigues; rather, it is the hefty price of allowing flagrant contradiction(s) between gospels to meet skewed theological agendas – that has to be observed!

On this regard, it would be best to end this brief investigation with New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman’s note:

 

“The main point is that the stories that Christians told and retold about Jesus were not meant to be objective history lessons for students interested in key events of Roman imperial times. They were meant to convince people that Jesus was the miracle-working Son of God whose death brought salvation to the world, and to edify and instruct those who already believed. Sometimes the stories were modified to express a theological truth. For the early Christians who passed along the stories we now have in the Gospels, it was sometimes legitimate and necessary to change a historical fact in order to make a theological point. These are the stories that the Gospel writers inherited.” (The New Testament: A Historical Introduction, The Traditions of Jesus in their Greco-Roman context, Chapter 3, Pp 48-49)

We need to think about a certain aspects! If gospel author(s) can manipulate the timing of alleged crucifixion for mere correlation with a Jewish custom, then is it possible that they can modify other aspects of Jesus’ (peace be upon him) life and alleged death as well! How about manipulating his words too which ended up in the current New Testament? How about exaggeration of his status and miracles? In fact the possibilities just open up like opening of floodgates. We leave that for readers to cogitate further when they pick up New Testament.

 

Finally an exemplification at par for the treatment of “Scriptures”:

 

Then We made you heirs in the land after them, to see how ye would behave! But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: “Bring us a reading other than this, or change this,” Say: “It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come).” (Qur’an 10:14-15, Yusuf Ali)

In the hostile situation where Prophet (peace be upon him) preached it was easier for him to compromise the revelations he was inspired with at least at nominal level, yet it was not in his authority to change God’s word.

 

Notes:

  • Unless otherwise mentioned all biblical text taken from Good News Edition.
  • Textual emphasize wherever not matching with original is ours.
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Comments

  • test1  On January 17, 2013 at 4:27 pm

    test

  • Oliver Elphick  On January 26, 2013 at 3:59 pm

    Let’s see now. First, a day, in Hebrew reckoning, is from sunset to sunset, so what happens during the daytime is on the same day as the evening before.

    Second, you have quoted a mistranslation of John 19:14. It does not say, “It was then almost noon of the day before Passover”.. The actual text is ην δε παρασκευη του πασχα ωρα ην ως εκτη – “It was the preparation of the Passover being about the sixth hour”. The preparation of the Passover is its first day; the Passover by this time referred not only to the day of Passover itself but also to the seven days of unleavened bread that followed. The Passover meal was eaten in homes on the evening (the start of the day) but later, during daylight, there was a ceremony in the temple; it is that that the chief priests are thinking of when they want to avoid being made ritually unclean.

    Next, the time of day. The basic rule for evaluating historical documents is to take them as true unless there is good reason to doubt them. Therefore we should first see if the given time can be reconciled with the other gospels, and this can be done easily if we take it that in this case John was using the Roman 24 hour count that we use today – not unlikely since by the time he wrote the gospel he was living in the Roman province of Asia, at Ephesus. In that case the time is around six o’clock in the morning and refers generally to the time of the trial, which covered a period on either side of that time. By the time Jesus was taken out of the city to Golgotha and crucified it would be getting on for nine o’clock. This is the more likely in that Jesus was taken to Pilate in the early morning (ην δε πρωι) (18:28) meaning at first light, around 5 am or even earlier, and the trial would not have taken seven hours.

    To further bolster John’s position, we can observe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is not portrayed as symbolizing his body and blood to the food and drink of the Passover meal respectively as he did in Mark’s gospel; simply because he was never present in the Passover meal! Probably, by the feast time, he was in his alleged tomb!

    Here, you have lost sight of which gospel you are attacking. You started off taking John as being a distorted account compared to the other gospels. Now you are taking John as reliable and the other gospels as not. You really ought to decide which line you are going to push.

    There are certainly interesting differences in the gospel accounts, but they are quite capable of resolution. Here is a link to a chart that I compiled a few years back, doing just that.

    • mansubzero  On March 14, 2013 at 9:01 pm

      First, we have to establish when the day begins and Mk 16:2 tells us that the first day of the week began in the morning, so the day in Mk goes from morning to morning, the Roman concept of the day. This means that in Mk 15:42 the evening is that of the (day of) preparation, the day before the sabbath, ie “Friday” (for linguistic convenience–the only named day at the time was the sabbath). Josephus talks of the “day of preparation”, παρασκευη, as related to the sabbath in AJ 16.163 (16.6.2) with a discussion that leads to the παρασκευη being the day before the sabbath. Hence Mk 15:42’s προσαββατον.

      Mt 27:62 tells us that the next day after the death of Jesus was the day after the day of preparation: the next day was the sabbath, so the death was Friday.

      Lk 23:54, using the Jewish concept of the day, tells us regarding the burial that it was the day of preparation and the sabbath was beginning, ie Jesus died on Friday.

      Jn 19:31 indicates that as it was the day of preparation, the Jews didn’t want to leave the body up on the sabbath, ie Jesus died on Friday. Incidentally, this particular sabbath was special as it occurred on the passover. The text is clear however, that this was still a sabbath in the normal sense of the seventh day, so the day of preparation for the passover (Jn 19:14) coincided with the normal day of preparation, just as this sabbath coincided with the passover.

      The synoptic gospels indicate that the last supper was in fact the passover meal (Mk 14:14-25), the first day of unleavened bread, so the passover was over when Jesus was crucified, which would be 15 Nisan. This means that Jn tells a different story from the synoptics regarding the death of Jesus in relation to the passover for the passover was yet to be eaten.

    • mansubzero  On March 15, 2013 at 10:22 pm

      This ruse of expanding the duration of the preparation of the spices in the narrative fails to explain Lk 23:54-56: as the sabbath [the “ordinary” sabbath, for the passover meal had already been eaten at the last supper (22:15) and was passed before Jesus died] was dawning the women prepared the spices and then rested for the sabbath. Your attempt to ignore the chronology supplied in Mk breaks the chronology in Lk. At the same time you are expanding the duration of the spice issue, you want to compress time with the burial, for after the death of Jesus and Pilate was petitioned, Jesus was taken down removed to the tomb of Joseph or Arimathea, wrapped in bands, laid in the tomb, the tomb closed, the women seeing all this, returning and preparing the spices (“making a fire, boiling oils, adding the ingredients, and letting it cook all day”) all before sunset, that’s what you imply, given that this was not the day of preparation for the passover which had already passed, but the preparation for the “ordinary” sabbath.

      You choose to not read the Marcan text for what it says, ie the women bought spices early on the first of the week and went to the tomb, because you choose to impose some a priori theory about what the text should say.

      ..

      You obstinantly refuse to look at the language evidence, despite a number of illustrative indications of the structure of the day and prefer to remain in your lack of knowledge.

      When did the Jews start the day at evening instead of morning? When you consider Gen 1, the structure of the day is rather plain. God works during the day performing the creation. When the work of the day is over there is evening (ערב ereb = sunset) and there is morning (בקר boqer = end of night) and that completed the day. The day in Gen 1 was morning to morning.

      Despite any evidence I show you to the contrary it seems you will continue in your unfounded belief that the day has always started in the evening for the Jews. Until you can show that that is not the case (by responding to specific indications) and you are not just wallowing in your own errors, I don’t think you can say anything useful on the structure of the day.

      http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=323354&page=4

      • Oliver Elphick  On March 16, 2013 at 5:04 am

        When did the Jews start the day at evening instead of morning? When you consider Gen 1, the structure of the day is rather plain. God works during the day performing the creation. When the work of the day is over there is evening (ערב ereb = sunset) and there is morning (בקר boqer = end of night) and that completed the day. The day in Gen 1 was morning to morning.

        I imagine they started the day in the evening from the very beginning, but they were certainly so counting it in New Testament times, just as they do today. So save your deliberate misinterpretations for an area where you can less easily be shot down.

        If you are in Jerusalem on Friday night, all traffic goes quiet around sundown, because the sabbath is about to begin, and everything starts to come back to normal on the Saturday evening after dark.

        We can see that it was the same in the first century:

        Mark 1:21 And they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath he entered the synagogue and was teaching. 

        32 That evening at sundown they brought to him all who were sick or oppressed by demons.

        Why only at sundown? Because that was when the sabbath was over.

        And of course that was why the Jews wanted the crucified men taken down before evening, because that was when the sabbath began.

        Luke 23:52 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.  53 Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a tomb cut in stone, where no one had ever yet been laid.  54 It was the day of Preparation, and the Sabbath was beginning.

    • mansubzero  On March 15, 2013 at 10:22 pm

      You are merely asserting once again the sort of stuff you need to show. The torah talks about sabbaths and feasts. They are not the same thing, though for the feast of tabernacles (weeks), the first and eighth days were sabbath observances, ie treated like sabbaths. This is not the case for passover and the feast of unleavened bread. While the sabbath and the first and last days of the festival of unleavened bread are holy convocations (religious days), the first and last days of the festival are not sabbaths or treated like sabbaths, nor is the passover, which is the eve before unleavened bread. For full details see Lev. 23:5-8… hell, let’s post it:

      5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD’S Passover. 6 Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work. 8 But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.

      Notice references to sabbaths here? Neither did I.

      • Oliver Elphick  On March 16, 2013 at 5:09 am

        “You shall not do any ordinary work” (Lev 23:7)

        That is the rule for the sabbath. So effectively, this is a sabbath. And no ordinary work means no shopkeepers selling spices.

    • mansubzero  On March 15, 2013 at 10:23 pm

      In addition to Mark 15:42 you may have noticed the combination here of no restrictions on what Apologists say and no Apologists. You should ask yourself why that is.

      Your attempts to explain 15:42 in English is just avoiding the original Greek. You have to start with the Greek:

      http://biblos.com/mark/15-42.htm

      Strong’s Transliteration Greek English Morphology
      2532 [e] Kai Καὶ And Conj
      2235 [e] ēdē ἤδη already Adv
      3798 [e] opsias ὀψίας evening Adj-GFS
      1096 [e] genomenēs γενομένης having arrived, V-APM-GFS
      1893 [e] epei ἐπεὶ since Conj
      1510 [e] ēn ἦν it was [the] V-II-3S
      3904 [e] paraskeuē παρασκευή Preparation, N-NFS
      3739 [e] ho ὅ that RelPro-NNS
      1510 [e] estin ἐστιν is V-PI-3S
      4315 [e] prosabbaton προσάββατον [the day] before Sabbath, N-NNS
      (and if there’s anything that could help you here it would be (the) God-awful Strong’s)

      Note that the adjective here is “evening” and the noun it describes is “preparation”. “Evening” gives a context of a day but “the preparation” gives the context of a day with a special significance. The author than defines the special significance (for his goyishe audience). It is a preparation day before Sabbath. Breaking down the offending word prosabbaton, we have the pre-fix “pro” = “before” and than the word for the Sabbath. “Mark” always and many times uses this word for the regular Sabbath. Since this is the word “Mark”, the other Gospellers, the Fathers, the Bible scholars, the Jews and everyone else except you and a few Apologists use for the regular Shabbat, the issue is decided.

      Not that it’s needed but the subsequent context makes clear that a regular Shabbat is being described:

      http://biblos.com/mark/16-1.htm

      Strong’s Transliteration Greek English Morphology
      2532 [e] Kai Καὶ And Conj
      1230 [e] diagenomenou διαγενομένου having been past V-APM-GNS
      3588 [e] tou τοῦ the Art-GNS
      4521 [e] sabbatou σαββάτου Sabbath, N-GNS
      http://biblos.com/mark/16-2.htm

      Strong’s Transliteration Greek English Morphology
      2532 [e] kai καὶ And Conj
      3029 [e] lian λίαν very Adv
      4404 [e] prōi πρωὶ early Adv
      3588 [e] tē τῇ on the Art-DFS
      1520 [e] mia μιᾷ first [day] Adj-DFS
      3588 [e] tōn τῶν the Art-GNP
      4521 [e] sabbatōn σαββάτων of the week, N-GNP

      • Oliver Elphick  On March 16, 2013 at 6:07 pm

        No question that σαββάτων means sabbath. In my opinion the first day of unleavened bread, being a day of no work, was also called a sabbath. You have not addressed that.

        It would certainly be a day on which the priests would not want crucified bodies polluting the land.

    • mansubzero  On March 16, 2013 at 8:23 pm

      why doesn’t a meat worshipping pagan like you go to the forum and boast of your answers like you do here? you know you would get crucified and debunked badly thats why you hang around here?

      look @ this

      http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=323354&page=5

      While we are waiting for Ken Brown to start reading, I’d like to return to when the day started in early Jewish tradition. Ken Brown seems to think against the textual indications I’ve already provided that the Jews always had a day which started in the evening. This is not so. To demonstrate this once again, let’s look at Ex 16:

      21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'” 24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”

      Here on the sixth day we see the preparation of food for the sabbath. It was cooked the day before because no cooking was allowed on the sabbath. It was to be left until the morning and miraculously there were no maggots. It wasn’t prepared for evening consumption as one would expect for a day starting in the evening, but for consumption on a day that started in the morning. The day ran from morning to morning as all indications I’ve posted this far have shown.

    • mansubzero  On March 16, 2013 at 8:28 pm

      why can’t you just admit it that the pagan authour of johns gospel had to make an ANIMAL ritual out of the meat of your murdered god? tell me something, why would a diety want to feel/experience pagan violence? WHAT FOR ? why watch himself do such absurd and gutter like action?

      • Oliver Elphick  On March 16, 2013 at 8:53 pm

        The reason that Jesus came to earth and became a man was to enable him to stand in the place of man and free us from the penalties and the power of sin.

        You Muslims have no comprehension of what sin really is, and you think that it is a light thing, that you can merely ask Allah to forgive. Then you hope that your good deeds will outweigh your bad ones.

        But sin is intolerable to God; he is too pure to look on iniquity; he will not endure any sin. And God is perfectly just, so that he MUST punish sin or violate his own character, which he will never do. The penalty of any sin is death, and that means separation from God for ever and punishment in the lake of fire.

        But God is also love and he loves all mankind and does not want anyone to perish. Therefore he determined to take the penalty of sin on himself and himself to satisfy his own justice, and before creation he arranged things in such a way that he could do this. So when Adam sinned, all his descendants were involved in his sin, and inherit from him a spirit that is separated from God and a tendency to commit sin, and every one of us HAS committed sin, and therefore we are all under condemnation.

        Jesus was made a curse for us on the cross, because under the law a hanged man is cursed, and thus the sinless Son of God was made sin for us. Bearing that load of sin, he died, and the penalty of sin was paid. But because he was innocent of any sin, God raised him from the dead and glorified him again in the heavens with him, with the glory that he had had with the Father before the world was made.

        Because we are incorporated in Adam we share in his curse, but we can choose to be incorporated in Jesus instead, by repenting of our sins and trusting him for salvation. Those who do will never have to face the judgement, because a judgement of “not guilty” has already been made in our case. We are also being gradually freed from the power of sin, and at death we will be completely freed even from its presence in our lives.

        It was on the basis of the sacrifice of himself that Jesus was going to make on the cross that God was able, before the cross, to forgive sins without compromising his justice. Now he requires everyone to acknowledge the work that Jesus Christ has done on the cross, and those who will not must face him in the judgement not only bearing the sins that Jesus had already died for, but also with the enormous sin of rejecting God’s own provision for their salvation.

    • mansubzero  On March 16, 2013 at 8:40 pm

      My response hasn’t changed. Why don’t you answer the question yourself, seeing as the sabbath was over (16:1) and at the earliest (πρωι) on the first of the week they came, which was when the sun rose (16:2). You’d think the Lucan writer had heard your confusion and rewrote the text so the women prepared the spices on the day of preparation (23:56), rather than buying them early on Sunday morning.

      Mt 28:1 simplifies the issue: “at the end (οψε) of the sabbath, as the first of the week was dawning [they] went to the tomb.” This οψε is at the other end of the day from πρωι. It is where the day ends, ie with the dawning of the new day. The day goes from πρωι to οψε. Is there any way you can mangle this brief text to give you the hope of starting the day in the evening? (It’s rhetorical.)

      Back to Luke 23:54, “And it was the day of the Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning to dawn (επεφωσκεν).” The sabbath came at dawn, didn’t it? You don’t need to confirm. You need to find some desperate excuse not to read what it says. Of course, before the sabbath actually dawned they prepared the spices.

      And in Acts 4:3 when they arrested Peter and John and “put them in prison until the next day, as it was now evening”, when did the next day start? Obviously with the daylight hours.

      This ruse of expanding the duration of the preparation of the spices in the narrative fails to explain Lk 23:54-56: as the sabbath [the “ordinary” sabbath, for the passover meal had already been eaten at the last supper (22:15) and was passed before Jesus died] was dawning the women prepared the spices and then rested for the sabbath. Your attempt to ignore the chronology supplied in Mk breaks the chronology in Lk. At the same time you are expanding the duration of the spice issue, you want to compress time with the burial, for after the death of Jesus and Pilate was petitioned, Jesus was taken down removed to the tomb of Joseph or Arimathea, wrapped in bands, laid in the tomb, the tomb closed, the women seeing all this, returning and preparing the spices (“making a fire, boiling oils, adding the ingredients, and letting it cook all day”) all before sunset, that’s what you imply, given that this was not the day of preparation for the passover which had already passed, but the preparation for the “ordinary” sabbath.

      You choose to not read the Marcan text for what it says, ie the women bought spices early on the first of the week and went to the tomb, because you choose to impose some a priori theory about what the text should say.

      You claim this, Ken Brown, despite the fact that the passover is celebrated in Mk 14:12-25 and Mk 16:1 talks only of the sabbath, not a “high sabbath”, not the first day of unleavened bread, not the passover. You are perverting the text. Your views are straight eisegesis, injecting what you want the text to say for religious purposes, despite the fact that the text says no such thing. Shame on you, Ken Brown.

      • Oliver Elphick  On March 17, 2013 at 4:17 am

        Back to Luke 23:54, “And it was the day of the Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning to dawn (επεφωσκεν).” The sabbath came at dawn, didn’t it?

        However, this was indubitably late afternoon as you say:

        for after the death of Jesus and Pilate was petitioned, Jesus was taken down removed to the tomb of Joseph or Arimathea, wrapped in bands, laid in the tomb, the tomb closed, the women seeing all this, returning and preparing the spices (“making a fire, boiling oils, adding the ingredients, and letting it cook all day”) all before sunset

        (though I don’t know where you are getting the details of how to prepare the spices. I doubt they would take that long since Jewish practice requires a body to be buried the same day – before evening comes. Oh look, another evidence of when the day starts.)

        As you show, επεφωσκεν is used for the beginning of the sabbath and was happening at the end of the afternoon, in spite of the fact that the literal meaning of the word is “shine or dawn upon”.

        As I said before, current Jewish practice, which as far as I know has never been changed from anything else, is for the day to begin at evening. The sabbath starts when three stars can be seen. This comes from Genesis 1, where each day concludes “and there was evening and there was morning – day one/second/third/fourth/fifth/sixth”. From this we can conclude that God set the mass of creation rotating immediately and then created light half way through the first rotation.

        If it makes you happy, you can think of yourself as being in the opposite hemisphere, on the Eastern side of the date line.

        I don’t think that the women would have been able to buy spices in the morning of the day after the sabbath and still get to the tomb before the sun was up — τη δε μια των σαββατων ορθρου βαθεως (Lk 24:1) If the Sabbath ends in the morning — dawn to dawn,as you say — they could not buy anything until dawn and then they would have to prepare it. Mark 16:1 says διαγενομενου του σαββατου…ηγορασαν αρωματα – the sabbath being past…they bought spices. But it is tricky to say that this must be after the sabbath was past if the sabbath runs from dawn to dawn. If it runs evening to evening, there is no problem.

        Now as to the first day of unleavened bread, it was a day of no work and it came the day following the Passover. If the Passover fell on a Thursday, the first day of Unleavened bread would have been the Friday. If the Passover was the Friday, the first day of the feast would have coincided with the weekly sabbath. The Greek is no help, because the word for “sabbath” is normally plural. We cannot even be sure of the dates of Passover, because the new moon, which started the month, was established by observation rather than by astronomical calculations as it is now.

        And in Acts 4:3 when they arrested Peter and John and “put them in prison until the next day, as it was now evening”, when did the next day start? Obviously with the daylight hours.

        “Day” is used with various meanings, as in English. Here it refers to the time of daylight, when it is possible to work. (When people ignore such considerations, it is evident that rationality is being thrown out of the window.) According to Vine’s Expository Dictionary, there are two words for evening. This one is εσπερα (hespera) and the other one, which more often signifies late evening, is οψια (opsia). Vine also says that the Jews recognised two evening periods, one from 3pm (the time of the evening sacrifice) to sunset, and the other after sunset. Thus the Jewish leaders put the apostles in prison until the next day (working day) because it was already late afternoon.

        And I am not Ken Brown!

  • mansubzero  On March 14, 2013 at 9:01 pm

    http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=323354&page=4

    crosstian:
    There is nothing in the historical account that indicates the Feast Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath fell on the same day. In fact, it can be conclusively proven that they didn’t.

    reply:
    Here you did not read what I said.
    reply:
    According to Leviticus there is no feast sabbath (other than the feast that falls on the sabbath). This should be clear to you from the separation of feast days and sabbaths (Lam 2:6), feasts, new moons and sabbaths (1 Chr 23:31), etc. The day of atonement, Lev 16:31 calls a sabbath sabbaton, ie a sabbath observance, requiring the same observance as a sabbath. This is also the case for the first and eighth days of Sukkot. It is not the case for other holy days. Passover is neither a sabbath (nor a sabbath observation), unless, of course, it falls on the sabbath.

    First, we have to establish when the day begins and Mk 16:2 tells us that the first day of the week began in the morning, so the day in Mk goes from morning to morning, the Roman concept of the day. This means that in Mk 15:42 the evening is that of the (day of) preparation, the day before the sabbath, ie “Friday” (for linguistic convenience–the only named day at the time was the sabbath). Josephus talks of the “day of preparation”, παρασκευη, as related to the sabbath in AJ 16.163 (16.6.2) with a discussion that leads to the παρασκευη being the day before the sabbath. Hence Mk 15:42’s προσαββατον.

    Mt 27:62 tells us that the next day after the death of Jesus was the day after the day of preparation: the next day was the sabbath, so the death was Friday.

    Lk 23:54, using the Jewish concept of the day, tells us regarding the burial that it was the day of preparation and the sabbath was beginning, ie Jesus died on Friday.

    Jn 19:31 indicates that as it was the day of preparation, the Jews didn’t want to leave the body up on the sabbath, ie Jesus died on Friday. Incidentally, this particular sabbath was special as it occurred on the passover. The text is clear however, that this was still a sabbath in the normal sense of the seventh day, so the day of preparation for the passover (Jn 19:14) coincided with the normal day of preparation, just as this sabbath coincided with the passover.

    The synoptic gospels indicate that the last supper was in fact the passover meal (Mk 14:14-25), the first day of unleavened bread, so the passover was over when Jesus was crucified, which would be 15 Nisan. This means that Jn tells a different story from the synoptics regarding the death of Jesus in relation to the passover for the passover was yet to be eaten.

  • mansubzero  On March 16, 2013 at 8:22 pm

    While we are waiting for Ken Brown to start reading, I’d like to return to when the day started in early Jewish tradition. Ken Brown seems to think against the textual indications I’ve already provided that the Jews always had a day which started in the evening. This is not so. To demonstrate this once again, let’s look at Ex 16:

    21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'” 24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”

    Here on the sixth day we see the preparation of food for the sabbath. It was cooked the day before because no cooking was allowed on the sabbath. It was to be left until the morning and miraculously there were no maggots. It wasn’t prepared for evening consumption as one would expect for a day starting in the evening, but for consumption on a day that started in the morning. The day ran from morning to morning as all indications I’ve posted this far have shown.

    shot down?

    http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=323354&page=5

  • Oliver Elphick  On March 16, 2013 at 8:36 pm

    You haven’t shown any such thing. You have merely made assertions with verses that do not actually prove what you want them to.

    People do not eat only in the evening. Also, the manna had to be gathered in early morning, before it melted away. The verse does not even say that they cooked it for the following day. They were to keep for the next day what was left after cooking for the current day.

    • mansubzero  On March 16, 2013 at 8:44 pm

      so WHAT ARE YOU like a crucified chicked doing here? go and boast your answer off over there and lets see how well you do

    • mansubzero  On March 16, 2013 at 8:47 pm

      It wasn’t prepared for evening consumption as one would expect for a day starting in the evening, but for consumption on a day that started in the morning

  • mansubzero  On March 16, 2013 at 9:32 pm

    quote:
    The reason that Jesus came to earth and became a man was to enable him to stand in the place of man and free us from the penalties and the power of sin.

    so when your pagan god BECAME a man, he changed and left his powers behind. how can SOMETHING be considered 100% god when that something BECAME a man? so your god is TEMPTED with sexual thoughts and has errections and also semen, right? because MAN has all of this.

    quote:
    You Muslims have no comprehension of what sin really is, and you think that it is a light thing, that you can merely ask Allah to forgive. Then you hope that your good deeds will outweigh your bad ones.

    why can’t an all powerful and all knowing God make good deeds EAT up BAD deeds? if he, according to the ot CAN PUT IN new hearts, then surely He can DEFEAT sin by making changes.

    quote:
    But sin is intolerable to God; he is too pure to look on iniquity; he will not endure any sin. And God is perfectly just, so that he MUST punish sin or violate his own character, which he will never do. The penalty of any sin is death, and that means separation from God for ever and punishment in the lake of fire.

    god is a freakin POUGHTER that he can’t forgive sin ? did he not make man and know that the emotions and desires in man IS SOMETHING THAT he created? is sin able to DOMINATE and destroy god? who MADE hell? God did. the penal of sin is death? DOES a diety WHO CREATED DEATH, IS IN CONTROL of death, WATCHES DEATH, really need to apply death on his 100 % created meat?

    do scientists need to catch aids before they cure it?

    animals die everyday

    THEY DO not sin
    CHILDREN DIE EVERYDAY, THEY DO NOT SIN
    babies DIE IN thier mothers womb, THEY DO NOT SIN

    “But God is also love and he loves all mankind and does not want anyone to perish.”

    yeah BS, god so loved the world that he gave up his flesh and then got it BACK again? you call this crap love? if you don’t believe that god gave up his flesh he is going to make bacon out of your flesh, this is love? love with conditions lol

    god didn’t love humans, god in christianity is a selfish BUM

    you know why?
    because he self abused himself/murdered himself BECAUSE he wanted to cool down.it has NOTHING TO do with forgiveness or love , it has everything to do with a god who set EVERYTHING up for fail and then REWARD himself for doing a stupid and pathetic act.

    “Therefore he determined to take the penalty of sin on himself and himself to satisfy his own justice, and before creation he arranged things in such a way that he could do this. So when Adam sinned, all his descendants were involved in his sin, and inherit from him a spirit that is separated from God and a tendency to commit sin, and every one of us HAS committed sin, and therefore we are all under condemnation.”

    so how does violently beating the crap out of the flesh SOLVE anything?
    how does SENDING AN animal into the DESERT WITHOUT FOOD AND WATER AND WATCHING it die a HORRIBLE death SOLVE THE PROBLEM of sin?

    you STILL sin

    you still sin in thought and action

    so how does MURDER of FLESH fix anything?

    “Jesus was made a curse for us on the cross, because under the law a hanged man is cursed, and thus the sinless Son of God was made sin for us. Bearing that load of sin, he died, and the penalty of sin was paid.”

    so while your god was bearing the sin was SATAN the temporary OWNER of god? or was satan the owner of 100% human jesus? if your pathetic god could do all this “bearing” with all his stregth and his power, why COULDN’T he find an ALTERNATIVE way, WITHOUT violence to his flesh?

    ” But because he was innocent of any sin, God raised him from the dead and glorified him again in the heavens with him, with the glory that he had had with the Father before the world was made.”

    it is like

    hey , you know my friends father punished his son for 6 hours for humanities sin and it was ONLY a temporary punishment LOL

    AND you know god the son gets him self REWARDED after he is punished less than a day LOL

    “Because we are incorporated in Adam we share in his curse, but we can choose to be incorporated in Jesus instead, by repenting of our sins and trusting him for salvation.”

    NOBODY needs jesus or his murdered flesh or a dead cross, or a god who punished himself and then rewards himself. people need to make them selves God concious and the OT says it is achievable.

    ” Now he requires everyone to acknowledge the work that Jesus Christ has done on the cross, and those who will not must face him in the judgement not only bearing the sins that Jesus had already died for, but also with the enormous sin of rejecting God’s own provision for their salvation.”

    jezuz krist does work to himself? to the father? or is it the son person doing work to the father person? god is providing salvation by doing work to himself?

  • mansubzero  On March 16, 2013 at 9:40 pm

    “The reason that Jesus came to earth and became a man was to enable him to stand in the place of man and free us from the penalties and the power of sin.”

    I DO NOT SEE HOW THE PAGAN AND BLOODY MURDER OF THE flesh of your god SAVES ANYBODY from the POWER OF SIN? WHAT IS MAGICAL ABOUT MURDER OF FLESH? HOW MANY HUMAN FLESH DOES GOD CREATE EVERYDAY AND HOW MANY TIMES HAS GOD SEEN MAN GIVE UP HIS FLESH?
    SO jesus hands his life to satan for a few hours and TAKES IT BACK, how is that supposed to deal with the POWER OF SIN? and most IMPORTANTLY WHY DOES diety NEED VIOLENCE IN THE PROCESS TO ACHEIVE his goal to himself?

    • Oliver Elphick  On March 17, 2013 at 4:19 am

      Clearly you do not see.

      Equally clearly, you hate the thought that you need redemption.

      • mansubzero  On March 17, 2013 at 7:05 pm

        oliver, i will quote again the current discussion at the forum. the people there know greek and hebrew.

        quote 1

        You need to read the argument I posted, based on the specific terms used in v.23, Dave.

        ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake [of the mana] and boil what you want to boil [of the quail]. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’

        When does tomorrow start here, Dave? Did it start in the evening? If so, why does the text talk about keeping the food until the morning? Focus.

        quote:

        I will take your avoidance of the facts as an admission that Lev 23:5-8 says nothing about sabbaths. That’s why you want to talk about anything but Lev 23:5-8. Now that we have established that there is nothing about sabbaths in Lev 23:5-8, your dating of the death of Jesus to a supposed high sabbath for the first of unleavened bread is shown to be a sham.

        mansubzero: no jew on this planet can see SABBATHS in the verses FROM LEV

      • mansubzero  On March 17, 2013 at 7:37 pm

        :

        Mark 15:42 – And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath….

        John 19:31 – Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.

        Mark 15:42 When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath…

        John 19:31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

        Both authors identified the same day of the week…Friday.
        Passover is a week long feast with multiple feast days. But most significant, is that both Mark and John identify the same day of preparation before the Sabbath.

        why do christians make the pathetic assumption that john was talking about preparation for a different EVENT ON A DIFFERENT day THAN mark?

  • mansubzero  On March 17, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    Tomorrow is the sabbath. Prepare for the sabbath by baking and boiling and keep it till the morning. 24 “So they put it aside until the morning, as Moses commanded them…” 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is the sabbath of the lord…” Note that it does not say to keep it ti’l the evening and Moses doesn’t say in the evening “Eat it today, for today is the sabbath”. It is the morning in which Moses declares that today is the sabbath.

  • Oliver Elphick  On March 17, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    The stuff about manna is completely irrelevant. It came in the morning and, for the sabbath, it needed to be gathered the day before and kept overnight, until the next morning.

    People are not cooking and preparing during the night but during the day.

    This is simply not speaking to the trivial issue which you have made such a big thing of.

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