How Were People Before Crucifixion Saved?
Enquiring the validity of Vicarious Atonement in pre-Jesus (p) era
Introduction
Based on the teachings of the Old Testament it is extremely difficult to accept the Christian philosophy that sins before Jesus (peace be upon him) were forgiven in lieu of his future alleged death and resurrection.
On the fly, when we argued the same with a Christian at the Muslim Debate Initiative (MDI) Blog, Shamoun was particularly unhappy about it so much so that he published an official response to the comment.
It is now time that we respond Shamoun for his slanted interpretations but before it let us reiterate that it is not just the Old Testament but even the New Testament, as we would document in near future, overwhelmingly obviates the extreme necessity of Christ’s (peace be upon him) alleged sacrificial death and resurrection for the remission of sins.
Was it predestined that the “Lamb” would be slain?
Quite probably if Shamoun had to make a case that sins before Jesus (peace be upon him) were forgiven in lieu of his future alleged death and resurrection then it must be first proven that the crucifixion was predestined. Shamoun quoted passages from New Testament to prove it. Nevertheless, except for a passage from Peter’s epistle none other even comes close to prove it. We leave it to the readers to decide.
Even if we accept for the sake of argument that Peter and John believed that Jesus’ (peace be upon him) crucifixion was foreordained yet this is not what Jesus (peace be upon him) seems to have believed about himself! Consider for example the following passages:
“They came to a place of Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” He took Peter, James and John with him. Distress and anguish came over him, and he said to them, “The sorrow in my heart is so great that it almost crushes me. Stay here and keep watch. He went a little farther on, threw himself on the ground, and prayed that, if possible, he might not have to go through that time of suffering. “Father,” he prayed, “my Father! All things are possible for you. Take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet not what I want, but what you want.”” (Mark 14: 32-36, Good News Edition)
It is noticeable that given the first choice, Jesus (peace be upon him) would never had gone through the sufferings of the cross even if that would have allegedly remitted for the sins of the world!
Furthermore notice the way Jesus (peace be upon him) addressed God. He called Him very personally as “my Father”! Christians, especially the Trinitarians, interpret out of such personal expressions Jesus’ (peace be upon him) special and unique relationship with God so much so that because God is his Father he ought to share essence and divinity with God. Thus, given the Trinitarian interpretation, it is a divine “Son of God” requesting for the circumvention of the sufferings; and this further aggravates Shamouns case. Since as a co-equal “God” with Father, Jesus (peace be upon him) is expected to have known the plan of human salvation at its design stage. And Jesus’ (peace be upon him) reaction at Gethsemane seem to defy it all together. He seems to be more concerned about his suffering than for the eternal damnation of entire human race! Jesus (peace be upon him) seen to have neglected the Christian notion that there was not any other salvation plan other than his suffering on the cross! Thus, even if the alleged crucifixion was predestined, Jesus (peace be upon him), given an opportunity, never wanted to face it.
Such a state of affairs with Jesus (peace be upon him) settles nicely with the way he allegedly died. There was a sense of grudge and unwillingness to accept the “predestined plan of God” which made him question God for his ill-fate:
“At noon the whole country was covered with darkness, which lasted for three hours. At three o’clock Jesus cried out with a loud shout, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why did you abandon me?” Some of the people there heard him and said, “Listen, he is calling for Elijah!” One of them ran up with a sponge, soaked it in cheap wine, and put it on the end of a stick. Then he held it up to Jesus’ lips and said, “Wait! Let us see if Elijah is coming to bring him down from the cross!” With a loud cry Jesus died.” (Mark 15: 33-37, Good News Edition)
Firstly Jesus (peace be upon him) requests God to save him from the ordeal of the cross and then he dies with grievance against God that he was abandoned for an excruciating death on the cross. These reactions are hard to reconcile against the basic Christian notion that Jesus (peace be upon him) pre-planned and so knew about his crucifixion with other persons in the godhead even before the creation of the world! Furthermore, it is extremely implausible that remission of sins before Jesus’ (peace be upon him) actual crucifixion were taking place due his unwilling and future suffering on the cross.
As such the redactor(s) of later gospel (Luke’s gospel [1.]) deemed it prudent to remove the controversial moaning and expressions of anguish on the cross. So now Jesus (peace be upon him) is not complaining to God for his abandonment on the cross; rather he is now made to react as he should react. He is now in perfect harmony with the initial plan chalked before the creation of the world; he is now satisfied with the decision and plan of God:
“Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Father! In your hands I place my spirit!” He said this and died.” (Luke 23: 46, Good News Edition)
The oldest gospel – Mark’s gospel – has more problems for Shamoun. Remember that crucifixion alone is not enough for Christian version of salvation. Jesus (peace be upon him) must also resurrect after his alleged death!
“…and if Christ has not been raised from death, then we have nothing to preach and you have nothing to believe” (1 Corinthians 15:14, Good News Edition)
However, the best and oldest manuscripts of Mark’s gospel end with absolutely no witness to the resurrected Jesus (peace be upon him). This would have become so serious in the light of the Pauline philosophy of salvation that a “new” ending was added to Mark’s gospel!
On the foregoing, we have a situation wherein Jesus (peace be upon him) is unwilling and acts contrary to the initial alleged plan of his suffering for the salvation of humanity. We have no witness to his resurrection according to the best and earliest gospel manuscript. Yet Shamoun would claim remissions of pre-Jesus (p) era (Old Testament era, say) were due to Christ’s alleged crucifixion which was to materialize in far future! It seems extremely far-fetched upon objective enquiry.
Let Lamb be slain at the Foundation of the World
Shamoun quotes a number of New Testament passages to claim that it was the pre-plan of Jesus’ (peace be upon him) alleged death that allowed God forgive people even before he (peace be upon him) was actually sacrificed:
“Now how do these passages establish the fact that Christ’s death had been predestined from the foundation of the world? And how do they prove that the reason God was forgiving and saving his people even before Christ actually died is because Jesus’ death in their place had already been foreordained?
The answer comes from John’s description of the book of life as belonging to the Lamb who had been slain.
The people whose names had been written in the Lamb’s book of life before the creation of the world are those whom Christ redeems by his blood:
“I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?’ And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, ‘Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.’ And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders A LAMB STANDING, AS IF SLAIN, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; FOR YOU WERE SLAIN, AND PURCHASED FOR GOD WITH YOUR BLOOD MEN FROM EVERY TRIBE AND TONGUE AND PEOPLE AND NATION. YOU HAVE MADE THEM to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.’ Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, ‘Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.’ And EVERY CREATED THING which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, ‘To Him who sits on the throne, AND TO THE LAMB, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.’ And the four living creatures kept saying, ‘Amen.’ And the elders fell down and worshiped.” Revelation 5:1-14”
The Revelation passage does talk about a weird type of a killed “Lamb” who assumedly has a book and the people who had their names registered in it are saved. However, it does not allude that these names are inclusive (or that they must include) of the names who lived before Jesus (peace be upon him). It is possible, in fact highly probable as we would soon observe, that the names previously written are those people who would eventually come to believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) either because of his or his apostles’ ministry. Now, consider the following passage which was ironically cited by Shamoun:
“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, ‘Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.’ Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?’ I said to him, ‘My lord, you know.’ And he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.’” Revelation 7:9-17
Notice the passage specifically identifies the people who got their sins remitted (“white robes”) in the blood of the slain Lamb. They are those who came out of the “great tribulation”. So the names previously written in the book of Lamb has to be of those who faced the great tribulation and yet came out of it as believers. Jesus (peace be upon him) identifies for us the timing of this “great tribulation”:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For THEN shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. (Matthew 24:15-25, King James Version)
It is clear from the passage that the “great tribulation” did not as yet materialized during the ministry of Jesus (peace be upon him). It was expected to happen sometime in the future. Thus, the people whose names were previously written in the Lamb’s book of life, in other words, those who got their sins remitted in the blood of slain Lamb must be those who would eventually face Jesus’ (peace be upon him) future prediction of the “great tribulation” and came out of it.
So names going into the Lamb’s book of life are contingent upon the experience of the “great tribulation” and a subsequent escape from it. This in turn implies that the Lamb’s book of life cannot possibly have the names of people before the generation of Jesus (peace be upon him)/or the era of “great tribulation”! Consequently, people of pre-Jesus (peace be upon him) era could not have been forgiven in lieu of his suffering and alleged sacrificial death.
That is the reason when Shamoun argues,
“In other words, since the names of the redeemed were written in the Lamb’s book of life before the world’s foundation then the means of their salvation must have also been ordained before creation as well. This is precisely why it is called the book of life of the Lamb who had been slain, e.g. it is the book that includes all the names of those whom the Lord Jesus purchased by his sacrificial death on the cross.
This, therefore, establishes my point that everyone prior to Christ actually dying were being saved because of his vicarious sacrifice since God knew that the Lamb, i.e. the Lord Jesus, would be slain in their place in order to free them from their sins.”
He merely assumes unwarrantedly that the Lamb’s book of life has names of every generation and era including those before Jesus (peace be upon him).
Conclusion
Jews have traditionally disagreed with Christian interpretation of the Hebrew Bible and this paper gave us hint towards it. Traditionally Jews never believed that the “Messiah” would have to be sacrificed for the sins of the world yet subjective Christians like Shamoun would claim that Jesus’ (peace be upon him) sacrifice and subsequent vicarious atonement were “predestined”.
Nevertheless, the Jesus (peace be upon him) of the earliest canonical gospel does not seem to behave according to the “predestined” plan. If he would have had a choice, Jesus (peace be upon him) would never had gone through the ordeal of the cross. More importantly, Jesus’ (peace be upon him) very last statement on earth belies all the “predestintion”. Either in frustrated despair or unknowing confusion, Jesus (peace be upon him) enquired why he was abandoned on the cross?
Shamoun quoted New Testament passages in support of his theory however, ironically, the same passage(s) established that it was not possible that people before Jesus (peace be upon him) were forgive in lieu of his prospective (alleged) sacrifice. This is because for people to have benefited from Christ’s (peace be upon him) alleged sacrifice it was necessary that they have their names registered in the Lamb’s book of life; and all the names which were eventually written in the book were of those who would come out of the “great tribulation”. And we know that the “great tribulation” was to occur after Jesus’ (peace be upon him) ministry! So if we are enquiring how people were saved before Jesus (peace be upon him) then we can be sure that they were not saved for prospective alleged sacrifice of the Messiah (peace be upon him); rather, they were saved as the Old Testament postulates it.
Therefore, when Shamoun rants such as,
Time for greenhorn and his partner in taqiyya, Sami Zaatari, to find another line of work. Attacking Christianity and defending the lies of Islam are simply not cutting it for them.
It sounds merely hyperbolic claims devoid of any objectivity.
Notes:
- Unless mentioned, the biblical texts are quoted from Shamoun’s paper.
- Emphasize wherever not matching with original, is ours.
Footnote
[1.] Christians have an “all-inclusive” theory wherein they would argue that Jesus’ (peace be upon him) complete statement on the cross is drawn by a holistic view of the gospels. And so Mark’s narrative must be supplemented with other gospels. Although the approach seems reasonable, however, it has at least the following twofold problems:
Firstly, it does not take care of the historical fact that not all gospels were present simultaneously. We know that at least a decade passed since Mark that Matthew and Luke came into existence. So there was hardly a chance for people in the interim to have knowledge of all narratives. Furthermore, even when all gospels came into existence, not all communities had them at one time given the incipient state of the religion and technological backwardness of the world. Add to it that even the canon was not decided until the fourth century.
Secondly, the approach does not recognize the efforts of authors and the sources at their disposition; since the authors had particular agendas that they wanted to portray while penning their gospels. So by having an “all-inclusive” approach to the scriptures, we do not allow a particular author to represent the life of Jesus (peace be upon him) as he knew (from his sources) and wanted to portray. Therefore, the “all-inclusive” approach engenders a motley description which can be unjust to individual gospel author(s) writing in his individual capacity.
DO NOT SAY TRINITY 
Comments
the people who testified that jesus wanted to be saved was NONE OTHER than the jews.they gave the christian god SOMETHING to quicken his death because they wanted to see if elijah would come down and rescue the crosstian diety.
when all those jews were commiting idolatry in the past, did yhwh IMAGINE the crucifixion of his future flesh puppet , or did the jews have in thier minds that they were burning flesh but really they were burning gods flesh to god? or when they slaughtered an animal, they thought that the god who had rescued them from egypt BY USE OF VIOLENCE, was himself SLAUGHTERED by the jews before they ran the knife through the goat/sheep kneck?
notice now the crucifixion doesn’t require FLESH/MEAT but WILD imaginations ?
notice that all thier pagan god had to do was IMAGINE how he was going to get a drubbing when the jews were taking out rams, sheep ect?
this god gets sick thoughts about his own flesh puppet when he WATCHES THE jews perform a sacrificial ritual.
lets be honest people, when the martyrs in islam went to thier DEATHS did they need stregthning from the holy spirit and bow 3 times to compose themselfs?
why is marks coward jesus is never played in church but lukes trumps over marks?
there are people who go to thier deaths WITHOUT DOING anything jesus did before he was murdered.
isn’t humans going to thier DEATH MORE IMPRESSIVE then a god who murdered his MEAT PUPPET?
think about it people.
“They came to a place of Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” He took Peter, James and John with him. Distress and anguish came over him, and he said to them, “The sorrow in my heart is so great that it almost crushes me. Stay here and keep watch. He went a little farther on, threw himself on the ground, and prayed that, if possible, he might not have to go through that time of suffering. “Father,” he prayed, “my Father! All things are possible for you. Take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet not what I want, but what you want.”” (Mark 14: 32-36, Good News Edition)
COmpare to
[10] They vindicated their nation, looking to God and enduring torture even to death.”
[11] Truly the contest in which they were engaged was divine,
[12] for on that day virtue gave the awards and tested them for their endurance. The prize was immortality in endless life.
[13] Eleazar was the first contestant, the mother of the seven sons entered the competition, and the brothers contended.
[14] The tyrant was the antagonist, and the world and the human race were the spectators.
[15] Reverence for God was victor and gave the crown to its own athletes.
[16] Who did not admire the athletes of the divine legislation? Who were not amazed?
[17] The tyrant himself and all his council marveled at their endurance,
[18] because of which they now stand before the divine throne and live through blessed eternity.
[19] For Moses says, “All who are consecrated are under your hands.”
[20] These, then, who have been consecrated for the sake of God, are honored, not only with this honor, but also by the fact that because of them our enemies did not rule over our nation,
[21] the tyrant was punished, and the homeland purified — they having become, as it were, a ransom for the sin of our nation.
[22] And through the blood of those devout ones and their death as an expiation, divine Providence preserved Israel that previously had been afflicted.
4 Maccabees 17:10-22
“They came to a place of Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” He took Peter, James and John with him. Distress and anguish came over him, and he said to them, “The sorrow in my heart is so great that it almost crushes me. Stay here and keep watch. He went a little farther on, threw himself on the ground, and prayed that, if possible, he might not have to go through that time of suffering. “Father,” he prayed, “my Father! All things are possible for you. Take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet not what I want, but what you want.”” (Mark 14: 32-36, Good News Edition)
quote:
While apologists argue that Jesus was God incarnate; now these same Christian apologists must argue that Jesus and God are not one as God had to abandoned Jesus during the Passion in order explain why Jesus is now a faithless coward!
So why was Jesus such a scared coward when we consider the noble death of Socrates? Why was Jesus such a coward in the face of death compared to the death of Stephan in Acts 7: 54 – 60 or any of the future Christian martyrs (Both those discussed by Eusebius or in Foxes Book of Martyrs)? Why was Jesus such a coward not facing death eagerly as we find with other Jews in both Joeseph and in the Books of Maccabees?
In Conclusion:
Despite the ploy of apologetic theology, the Gospels have given the Christian world a whining and crying cowardly Jesus whose final words on the cross was to blame God for all his cowardly problems in dealing with death.”
quote:
This is exactly why Christian apologists are so hard to nail down. The Biblical God is made of theological Lego Bricks that can be added and remove as the occasion arises, especially in apologetic arguments. It is here that these Lego theological bricks built the Bible (with its God) and now it builds Jesus (notice I use the active verb as Jesus can be changed without notice to keep him theologically functioning in any debate).
So when Jesus needs God – Jesus does not talk to himself – but now the Lego Brick with the “God Incarnate” is removed and we have an external God talking to Jesus in the Gospels (at his Baptism and on the Mt. of Transfiguration). But with this Lego God removed; Christianity runs into a major hermeneutical problem of heresy in having created two Gods: Jesus and Yahweh. Plus, add the third Lego Block in the presences of the Holy Spirit and we have (Oh hell!) polytheism big time! Hey, no problem! Just snap on the Trinity Lego Brick
“At noon the whole country was covered with darkness, which lasted for three hours. At three o’clock Jesus cried out with a loud shout, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why did you abandon me?” Some of the people there heard him and said, “Listen, he is calling for Elijah!” One of them ran up with a sponge, soaked it in cheap wine, and put it on the end of a stick. Then he held it up to Jesus’ lips and said, “Wait! Let us see if Elijah is coming to bring him down from the cross!” With a loud cry Jesus died.” (Mark 15: 33-37, Good News Edition)
lets not force in the trinitarian lego brick and look for the straight forward explanation. throughout jesus’ ministery, jesus was ALWAYS saved by god, angels, humans/crowds. when jesus was nailed to a cross, he realised that time was ticking away and still yhwh did not come and rescue him from the cross. even the jews said , ” let us see if elijah is going to come and rescue him” jesus in agony and distress finally gave up and became an apostate on the cross and with a loud cry DIED DIED DIED .
“This, therefore, establishes my point that everyone prior to Christ actually dying were being saved because of his vicarious sacrifice since God knew that the Lamb, i.e. the Lord Jesus, would be slain in their place in order to free them from their sins.”
your pagan triplet god knew that he was going to slay his meat puppet , but did the jews who had been rescued by yhwh , knew that your god knew that he was accepting their sacrifices because god was going to screw, blue and tatoo himself in the future? s o the poor animals life was taken away because your god was IMAGINING things in the future? he had to use a 4 legged animal to see how his meat puppet, which he created was going to get man handled? THE deciples were in total shock when your two legged lamb god told them that he was going to get MURDERED.
how do you think the jews reacted when yhwh told them that he was going to get murdered and because of his MURDER he is accepting thier flesh sacrifices to him?
“This, therefore, establishes my point that everyone prior to Christ actually dying were being saved because of his vicarious sacrifice since God knew that the Lamb, i.e. the Lord Jesus, would be slain in their place in order to free them from their sins.”
i’m trying to imagine the thoughts of your 2 leggid beared lamb god/meat puppet god.
every time the jew ran a knife through the KNECK of 4 leggid lamb, the 3 spirit gods you worship, told themselves, ” you gonna get it like that , i’m gonna give it to you like that through pagan roman hands…”
every time a jew LIT a lite THE flesh of a lamb/goat in the past, your 3 spirit gods were telling each other, ” i’m gonna give it to you like that….”
look @ how their wild and sick imaginations and thoughts.
god in trinity was feeling the joy of murdering his flesh through the killing/burning of the flesh of 4 leggid animals!
some how the sacrifices of the jews in the past has a direct affect on his spirit just like the gods who loved the smell of burning meat/flesh . maybe they used to make a meal out of the smoke which rose to them?
god in trinity , ” you can’t acheive anything, i’m gonna achieve something by doing over my created meat puppet, because it has a direct influence on my spirit”
three o’clock Jesus cried out with a loud shout, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why did you abandon me?
CRIED OUT WITH A LOUD SHOUT
ENDS WITH A loud CRY
With a loud cry Jesus died
LUKE
“Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Father! In your hands I place my spirit!” He said this and died.
john:
30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
matthew:
45From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,c lemasabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”
48Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
2 loud cries like in mark. the first cry of blasphemy and then the final cry.
luke:
44It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”e When he had said this, he breathed his last.
it leaves one scratching his head on why two writers can have thier jesus UTTER blasphemy in a loud voice , but couldn’t fit lukes gutsy jesus’ LOUD voice?
you would think this DEED
” One of them ran up with a sponge, soaked it in cheap wine, and put it on the end of a stick. Then he held it up to Jesus’ lips and said, “Wait! Let us see if Elijah is coming to bring him down from the cross!”
WOULD have confirmed in jesus’ mind that the father has LEFT him for dead and that there would be NO point in saying in a LOUD VOICE,
” “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”
NOT only did the jews manage to get jesus nailed , they are now standing beside him and taking the piss/mocking him
jesus earlier said, ” why have u forsaken me” then he hears the mocking off the jew
“Wait! Let us see if Elijah is coming to bring him down from the cross!”
did the mocking and the taste of the horrible wine give jesus enough ENERGY to conclude how luke does? doesn’t seem to go WITH THE FLOW.
think about this, you have 2 biographers who alledgely have eye witnesses infront of them.
one of the “eyewitnesses ” says , “jesus made a LOUD cry and DIED straight after”
the other said , “jesus said , father into your hands… this line is good for christians going through persecution and suffering…”
but what do mark and matthew choose to do? they , 60 years later, after the alledged events, choose “jesus made a LOUD cry and DIED” and thats it
or do you agree with what i’m saying and that
PSYCHOLOGICALLY the abandoned man puppet diety, HAD no LAST words when you couple him being FORSAKEN with him being MOCKED
IT would have confirmed in his mind that his god HAS LEFT him to MOCKERS and there is no POINT attributing GOOD TO god
u get it?
We respect your comments in the blog. However, please try to accomodate other religious view since statements such as “the moron god of christianity” is not actually according to the spirit of Islam.
Sincerely,
Q.M.
I apologise for being offensive on your blog, but I have a few questions for you. Can you help me think of reasons why GOD cannot become man. Allah made man and man is dependent .he need to aquire knowledge, god already has it because all knowing is part of him. Kunde said Allah is absolutely perfect and man in comparison to HIM isnot perfect. Kunde said, if you say creation is absolutely perrfect and god is absolutely perfect then god can MAKE ANOTHER god. I dont know if I have misquoted him. What christian want is that god can create PERFECT flesh and then give ghat flesh only some attributes and then that creation becomes god. But the problem is that if the fleshless diety trump/mangle/destroy /terminate the “sinless” flesh, thenhow is the flesh god? Now isn’t jesus flesh and spirit connected? In hell isnt the flesh a requirement to make it feel pain? So when something becomes something then the spirit must become something aswell, right?
Brother Manzubzero,
We welcome your inputs in the blog and at the same time we also want to have at least minimum level of honored interaction with people of other faiths. I do read your comments and I believe we can accomodate and critique Christian faith without affronting them.
sincerely,
Q.M.
please check out the new quotes in the post how were ppl saved before crucifixion
creation is absolutely perrfect and god is absolutely perfect then god can MAKE ANOTHER god.
It went along the line god is perfect, creaion is prffect, therefore god and ceation is one andctge same
We know creation is not ABSOLUTELY PERFECT NOT EVEN THE MUSHRIK trinitaria s say that tge flesh of jesus can trumpt the spirit of the trinity god
“…pre-planned and so knew about his crucifixion with other persons in the godhead even before the creation of the world!”
now think about this people
the moron god of christianity , IN his IMAGINATION , along with the triplets, was REPLAYING again and again the MURDER of his FINIITE meat puppet/flesh/lesser part of himself.
IN OTHER WORDS , christians fraudsters are saying that god SET everything UP for fail
1. PUTS a person called SATAN in the garden
2. DOES NOT CREATE a tall tree
3.god gave human NATURE and new HUMAN nature would slip , BECAUSE like he replays the murder of his flesh before it takes place, he replays the sin of adam also because he forsees it
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Let’s say your a parent. You bake a batch of cookies and place them on the kitchen counter. You then take your 4 year old and put them in the kitchen and, before leaving, you tell them to not eat the cookies from the cookie jar. They have free reign of the kitchen, but they can’t eat from the cookie jar. Then you walk out and lock the child and the cookies in the kitchen behind you.
Now let’s take a moment to reflect: 4 year old, kitchen, cookie jar (not tucked away in some cabinet, but sitting in a reachable position). Let’s also presume that you have omniscient powers (like god is supposed to have, according to the bible, e.g., “…for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.” [1 John 3.20] and”The Lord certainly knows everything that people do; he knows their imaginations and their thoughts and their hearts.” [2 Esdras 16:54]). So you knew that if you left the cookie jar there full of fresh cookies, your 4 year old would open it up and eat a cookie.
That is just what happens, too. The child goes over to the cookie dish, eats a cookie, and you burst into the kitchen and you say, ‘well, guess you’re doomed to a lifetime of toil and, by the way, you’re going to burn for eternity.’ And then you shove your 4 year old into an oven.
Too harsh? I agree. But this is the story of the Genesis account. Adam and Eve, who had no knowledge of good and evil (so, they were essentially innocent) and had just been created like five minutes before Satan showed up, committed a very forgivable act (eating fruit from the tree) and instead of doing the logical thing (you know, like removing the tree or putting it out of reach–like make it float or hover twenty feet up–or just not creating the damn tree in the first place) he places the tree within reach and gives creates evil and creates Satan (presumably) and allows all of this to happen even though he knew it was going to happen (because the Dude is all powerful and all knowing). And still damns man to a lifetime of toil and also misery after death (the Christian view of Hell, for our modern audience).
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this sick SELF absusing diety who pre planned his self abuse to himself so then he can reward himself with “eternal life” SET EVERYTHING up for fail, then curses the human being because it was his fault.
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When it comes to the death of Jesus, the Synoptics also got that all wrong, too.
So in Mark, for example, Jesus threw himself on the ground and begged God to allow him to escape the crucifixion; and the disciples also fled in fear. Jesus is “almost out of control” (p. 230).
John corrected all of that. When the mob came to arrest Jesus, it was they who all fell to the ground in dismay when Jesus spoke to them; when Peter attempted to save Jesus from the cross by cutting off someone’s ear, Jesus reminded him that he had to suffer death; and rather than Jesus allowing his disciples to run away in fear, he instructs the arresting party to let his disciples go. Jesus is “totally in control” (p. 231).
In Mark, Jesus screams out on the cross and asks why God has forsaken him. Sour wine is put to his lips to mock him.
In John, Jesus is offered the sour wine in obedient response to his statement that he was thirsty. That’s when he died, not with a shout or complaint, but with a dignified, “It is finished.”
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Death’s Loud Voice: Mark
And Jesus cried [aphiemi: uttered/let go/departed (“went out”)] with a loud voice [phone-megas] and gave up the ghost. (Mark 15:37)
To appreciate the image the author is conveying here, we need to be aware that just three verses earlier he had written:
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried [boao – same for the voice crying in the wilderness] with a loud voice [phone-megas], saying, . . . My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Mark 15:34)
And just as significantly, in two earlier dramatic scenes in this gospel, readers had been regaled with scenes of demons crying out with loud voices at the moment they were commanded to leave the bodies they had so long possessed.
And when the unclean spirit [pneuma] had torn him, and cried out with a loud voice [phone-megas], he came out of him. (Mark 1:26)
And cried with a loud voice [phone-megas] . . . and the unclean spirits [pneuma] went out . . . (Mark 5:7-13)
I think all this is a good indication that the author was intentionally using the same imagery for the moment of Jesus’ death as he had used for the expulsion of spirits from the bodies they had possessed. It is a cry of despair and defeat at the moment the spirit leaves its body.
This interpretation is reinforced by Mark’s description of how the spirit entered and possessed Jesus in the first place.
He saw the heavens parting and the spirit descending [falling down] into [eis] him like a dove . . . and immediately the spirit drove [ekballo: cast] him into the wilderness (Mark 1:10, 12)
The spirit that entered “into” Jesus (a detail that apparently embarrassed Matthew, since he changed the proposition to “epi”, meaning “lighted upon” Jesus) also “cast Jesus out” into the wilderness. The same word, ekballo, is used of Jesus casting out demons that had possessed other bodies. See this crosswalk.com list for ten such usages of the word in Mark.
Relying exclusively on the context of Mark’s text, a text that was written to be read aloud to audiences, it appears that the author described Jesus moment when his spirit (pneuma) exited his body in the same way he described the departure of other spirits from bodies — with a loud voice. On the face of it then, the loud cry is surely meant to indicate a cry of defeat, loss, pain. That would be consistent with Jesus crying out with a loud voice only moments earlier deploring the fact that even God had forsaken him. Recall that Mark’s Jesus is also the very human one who loses his temper a few times and sometimes needs two attempts and clay and spittle to complete a healing. It is also possible, of course, that an insider audience alert to Mark’s hidden meanings throughout the gospel (hidden, that is, from the characters in the gospel) also saw the cry as an ironic expression of a spiritual victory, but that has to remain a separate discussion.
That’s the meaning of Jesus’ final cry with a loud voice in Mark, confining ourselves to the text of Mark to contextualize it.
Luke’s gospel changes Mark’s narrative here, however.
And when Jesus had cried [phoneo – spoke] out with a loud voice, he said, “Father, into your hands I comment my spirit.” And having said this, he breathed his last. (Luke 23:46)
Luke’s Jesus did not weakly aphiemi (depart) with a loud voice, but more positively “spoke” or “cried out” (phoneo) with a loud voice. And far from being an utterance of despair or defeat, the voice conveyed a calm controlled peace at the moment of death: “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.”
We know that this author was re-writing Mark’s Jesus here quite consciously and deliberately. The author of Luke’s gospel was portraying a very different Jesus from Mark’s. Luke’s Jesus was at no point in despair on the cross. He nowhere utters the famous cry of dereliction from the 22nd Psalm. Instead, he tries to refocus those mourning for him on his way to his death:
Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me . . . (Luke 23:28)
He calls upon God to forgive his executioners:
Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do” . . . (Luke 23:34)
And settles a dispute among arguing thieves crucified with him by promising heavenly favours for the one on his side:
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)
So when Jesus cries out at the end, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit”, he is clearly intending to recast what was a cry of defeat in Mark’s gospel into a cry of supreme control of the situation.
If we interpret the loud cry of Jesus at his dying moment in Luke’s gospel from the context of Luke’s gospel, we find that it has been given a meaning completely different from the one found in Mark’s gospel.
Absent from Luke’s gospel are also those other Markan comparisons of the spirit entering/possessing/exiting Jesus’ body with unclean spirits doing likewise. Luke even changes Mark’s first exorcism scene to remove the demon’s loud voice from the moment of his expulsion, shifting it to his initial recognition of Jesus. So in Luke, the unclean spirit leaves with no sound effects at all, unless silence is considered the relevant “sound” effect:
But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be quiet, and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him in their midst, it came out of him and did not hurt him. (Luke 4:35)
Luke removed all of those uncomfortable suggestions in Mark that Jesus’ death had strange points in common with the demise of the opposing spirit world.